No Earth in Kitchen Downlights. What can I do?

[Vincent80]

Hope someone knowledgeable can help. I recently purchased a property and am in the process of changing the ceiling lights throughout the house. However I found that the kitchen downlight fitting (8 in total) are not connected to an earth (just live and neutral) and the earth wire has been cut back from the wire. All the other lights in the house have an earth.

At the light switch for the kitchen (2 switches: one for kitchen & one for rear extension) there is a fuse switch which appears to be earthed and connected to the kitchen/rear extension light switch.

As you can see there are 4 wires connected internally between the light switch and fuse switch (3 look to be coming from above and 1 from below the fitting). There is also an additional wire (unconnected to the circuit) which runs straight through (at the back of the box).



The 2 wires from the switch (kitchen & rear extension) are connected as follows. The other 2 wires connected to the fuse I don’t know where they are from??? There is also a RED wire connected from the FUSE to the SWITCH as well as another short RED wire connected from one switch connection to the other:



So my questions are:

1.) Are my kitchen lights earthed?

2.) Is this type of connection normal/safe?

3.) If I put new lights in the Kitchen (metal fitting with GU10 bulbs) will I need to earth at each light?

4.) If I need to earth each individual light, is it a simple case of putting a 3 way connector block and wiring it up? Hardly any slack on the short wire coming out of the ceiling

5.) Anything else I can do or should be aware of with this type of connection?

Thanks and hope someone can hep

 

[Risteard]

To be fair everything about the connections has been done incorrectly. Get an Electrician in.

 

[ericmark]

Many years ago while working on the Falklands, I visited a local farm where his wife had a nasty shock from washing machine. I felt I should sort it out, and like you found the earth wires cut back, and so went to a lot of trouble trying to connect them all up, however it was all to no avail, I found there was a joint in the loft which I could not access.

Since then I have come across this many times, where earths have been cut off, seldom can you find them all to rectify, so it may be better to start from scratch. What has likely happened is it was extra low voltage to start with, and some one has tried to alter them to low voltage, likely because they want to use LED's in the lamps.

So what you need to do is consider what you really want? The MR16 lamps be it extra low voltage or low voltage are great to light the picture on the wall, or your book at bed time, even to light up some remote dark corners, but really useless for general lighting, for general lighting the lights need area, a 600 lumen lamp 5" across will light better than one 2" across, and 3 x 3W lamps are better than a single 9W 2" diameter lamp.

You could get a Toroidal transformer and use twin core with no earth to all lights, using 12 volt, but the transformer is expensive and may be better to use a couple of fluorescent 2D or other large surface mount lamps and dump all the silly 2 inch lamps.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Some downlights and other lights do not require earth (although I would always recommend that one was supplied for future lighting and helps with tests/fault finding)
So check if your lights are class 1 (need earth) or double insulated ( no earth required)

But regardless of that the installation pictured, is appalling and dangerous! Live terminals must be enclosed within an insulated enclosure. That needs to be sorted.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

So my questions are:

1.) Are my kitchen lights earthed?

The downlight cans/fittings are not

2.) Is this type of connection normal/safe?

With regards to earthing, depends on the class of fitting class I require earthing but double insulated do not. Yet the terminals shown are unsafe regardless of omitted earth.
Could you post a picture of the data printed/stuck on the fitting

3.) If I put new lights in the Kitchen (metal fitting with GU10 bulbs) will I need to earth at each light?

Again depends of the data/specification of the fitting some do, some don't

4.) If I need to earth each individual light, is it a simple case of putting a 3 way connector block and wiring it up? Hardly any slack on the short wire coming out of the ceiling

Three way connector yes, you can strip the sheath back to expose earth (aka CPC) then sleave green/yellow. You can also extend the cable/flex. You will need three core flex between connector and fitting.
All terminals must be enclosed, as live terminals should not be exposed.
The other issue would be, that you did to confirm erath continuity, so some testing will be required.

5.) Anything else I can do or should be aware of with this type of connection?

As above test for continuity, as if it is not present, you will have to make it good or use double insulated fittings. And enclose the terminals in an insulated enclosure (do not tape them up)

 

[Vincent80]

With regards to earthing, depends on the class of fitting class I require earthing but double insulated do not. Yet the terminals shown are unsafe regardless of omitted earth.
Could you post a picture of the data printed/stuck on the fitting

Again depends of the data/specification of the fitting some do, some don't

Three way connector yes, you can strip the sheath back to expose earth (aka CPC) then sleave green/yellow. You can also extend the cable/flex. You will need three core flex between connector and fitting.
All terminals must be enclosed, as live terminals should not be exposed.
The other issue would be, that you did to confirm erath continuity, so some testing will be required.

As above test for continuity, as if it is not present, you will have to make it good or use double insulated fittings. And enclose the terminals in an insulated enclosure (do not tape them up)

There is nothing printed on the actual light fitting but there is a symbol showing a box inside a box.

1.) Does this confirm that this is a Class 11 Double Insulated fitting which does not require an earth?

2.) OPTION A: If I leave the current light fittings as they are (currently have R50 bulbs varying from 28w to 40w in the 8 spots) and enclosed them all within an insulated enclosure and then change the current bulbs to R50 low voltage LED Bulbs (5w or 6w). Will that make it all safe?

3.) OPTION B: Or if I were to change all 8 of the Class 11 light fittings to new Class 1, pull back the sheath on the wire to expose the earth (and confirm earth continuity at all 8 fittings), enclose in insulated enclosure. Would that be okay/safe?

4.) Once I have done either of the above options, is the wiring at the switch fuse okay as it is? Or would any changes need to be done if going with Class 1 and bring the Earth wire back into the system at the 8 individual points?

 

[333rocky333]

That style was always double insulated and sold prewired from new with a short 2 core flex, the lampholder was normally a type of porcelain that cli[pped in the black plastic housing.
They were designed to connect to a local j/b where the earths of the supply would terminate or carry on to the next fitting

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

1.) Does this confirm that this is a Class 11 Double Insulated fitting which does not require an earth?

The square within a square does mean there is no earth connection required.

2.) OPTION A: If I leave the current light fittings as they are (currently have R50 bulbs varying from 28w to 40w in the 8 spots) and enclosed them all within an insulated enclosure and then change the current bulbs to R50 low voltage LED Bulbs (5w or 6w). Will that make it all safe?

To clarify. It is the live and neutral terminal connector that requires enclosing. Changing the lamps should really make no difference either way, regarding safety.

3.) OPTION B: Or if I were to change all 8 of the Class 11 light fittings to new Class 1, pull back the sheath on the wire to expose the earth (and confirm earth continuity at all 8 fittings), enclose in insulated enclosure. Would that be okay/safe?

You would need to terminate the earth to the light fitting terminal, as well as enclosing the terminal block.

4.) Once I have done either of the above options, is the wiring at the switch fuse okay as it is? Or would any changes need to be done if going with Class 1 and bring the Earth wire back into the system at the 8 individual points?

I would check you have earth continuity there first, before connecting and checking further downstream.

In summary:
*It is safe with regards to absence of earth on class II fittings.
*If class I fittings were to be used, then confirmation of earth continuity is required and the earth must be terminated at light fitting.
*Downlights do require ventilation, so if there an thermal insulation in the ceiling void,
precautions must be taken, to allow ventilation of the fitting in the void.
*If there are habitable rooms above the void, then it would be wise to prevent the risk of the spread of fire/smoke.
*But regardless of the above, live terminals must be placed in an insulated enclosure.

 

[Vincent80]

To clarify. It is the live and neutral terminal connector that requires enclosing. Changing the lamps should really make no difference either way, regarding safety.

Thank you for that.

I'm going to stick with Option A and keep the current Class 11 light fittings. I'll just change the 28w/40w bulbs to 5w LED bulbs and ensure that all wires are enclosed in an enclosure.

Would the following enclosure be sufficent?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/debox-in-line-connector-box/8692h

So then no changes at the switch/fuse?

Would this then make everything safe? As the only thing I would really have done is put the wires within an enclosure.

 

[333rocky333]

For a tad more you can get the newer screwless version

Claims to be MF

http://www.screwfix.com/p/debox-2sl-screwless-in-line-junction-box/9858r

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Yes the Deboxes will be fine, I would also recomend striping the earth back, sleaving an terminating to the box.
@333rocky333
The absence of BS5733 on the tech spec, would leave me suspicious of MF claims.

 

[jg321]

I know this has been discussed before, but I always find it amusing how badly terminated those connections in those MF junction box stock photos are!

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I know this has been discussed before, but I always find it amusing how badly terminated those connections in those MF junction box stock photos are!

Yes would you think they would make sure they took pictures of a neat jobs/work.
Exposed live conductors and no earth sleeve. I have picked up on this is stores before.

 

[Vincent80]

Do the same rules apply, in regards to having the wires/terminal block in an enclosure, for flush wall/ceiling mounted light fittings?

And if so, what kind of enclosure would I need? As it would have to be about 1/4 of the size of the Deboxes in-order to fit between the light fitting and ceiling/wall.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

If the terminals are not enclosed within the fitting, therefore exposed to accidental contact. Then they must be enclosed.