4 Vs 5 Terminal dual-rate meter confusion

[d000hg]

I'm having a standard single-rate credit meter switched to dual-rate (not smart meter) in a rental property. The property is a 2-bed flat with no gas, so heating is all electric but heaters are regular fan heaters not storage heaters.

I'm getting confusion from Siemens about whether I need a 4 terminal or 5. They had thought I need 5 which they have none in stock. They keep asking me about storage heaters and water immersion. I don't actually know if my hot water is immersion or not as I am not local to the property.

What exactly is the extra terminal for, given the whole supply switches rates rather than one circuit being low-rate, etc? Can anyone explain what this all means?

 

[EFLImpudence]

With no storage heaters, you don't really want a dual rate meter, then.

 

[bernardgreen]

(1) Live In
(2) Neutral In
(3) Neutral Out
(4) Live Out, permanently ON
(5) Live Out, only ON during the lower rate period(s)

If you have no gas then the hot water will be heated by an electric immersion heater, that would normally be supplied from terminal 5 via suitable MCB and RCD

 

[d000hg]

With no storage heaters, you don't really want a dual rate meter, then.

Yes, I do. It is directly recommended by the EPC inspector. It's slightly convoluted so I'd rather just figure out the answer to the question Siemens are asking me "do you need 4 or 5 terminals"

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes, I do. It is directly recommended by the EPC inspector. It's slightly convoluted so I'd rather just figure out the answer to the question Siemens are asking me "do you need 4 or 5 terminals"

Ok. What did he say was the reason for that?

 

[d000hg]

(1) Live In
(2) Neutral In
(3) Neutral Out
(4) Live Out, permanently ON
(5) Live Out, only ON during the lower rate period(s)

Now it makes sense. So you'd wire storage heaters to 5... why are they asking about the immersion heater then? Traditionally would you only heat water at night, and use a boost on a different circuit if you ran out?

Given my use a 4 sounds fine, maybe I just tell them I need that and hope they take my word for it given they cannot get a 5!

 

[d000hg]

Ok. What did he say was the reason for that?

My property is a few points below the minimum band E for rental properties and there are no easy fixes left before we run into expensive changes. He said since EPC is based on energy COST not energy USE switching to an eco7 meter would swing things in my favour, a loophole of sorts.

 

[bernardgreen]

Traditionally would you only heat water at night,

Some dual rate tariffs provide a short period of the lower rate during the daym

The tank should have two immersion heaters. One near the bottom which runs on terminal 5 to heat the whole tank and a second one near the top which is the boost and runs on terninal 4

 

[EFLImpudence]

My property is a few points below the minimum band E for rental properties and there are no easy fixes left before we run into expensive changes. He said since EPC is based on energy COST not energy USE switching to an eco7 meter would swing things in my favour, a loophole of sorts.

I think that is nonsense - we'll see what others say, but -

to help you, I would think you want a four terminal meter so that everything goes to 'cheap' rate at night then you can do your washing, ironing, heating etc. after midnight - but if you have no storage heaters it will be more expensive for you.
Otherwise you would need separate circuits for the immersion (and storage heaters if you had them).

You do realise that on E7 the day rate is dearer than normal, don't you?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

My property is a few points below the minimum band E for rental properties and there are no easy fixes left before we run into expensive changes. He said since EPC is based on energy COST not energy USE switching to an eco7 meter would swing things in my favour, a loophole of sorts.

What he actually said was that since EPC is based on energy COST switching to a tariff which increases the COST will be an improvement.

I struggle to understand his thinking....

 

[AndyPRK]

Well if you use 70% at night with storage heaters it would work out cheaper

 

[ban-all-sheds]

heaters are regular fan heaters not storage heaters.

 

[OwainDIYer]

My property is a few points below the minimum band E for rental properties and there are no easy fixes left before we run into expensive changes.

Second-hand storage heaters are pretty cheap if you can find them on ebay local to you. One in the lounge and hall would usually meet requirements.

If you have single-glazed windows, plastic secondary glazing is also fairly cheap if you DIY it.

 

[flameport]

He said since EPC i

EPCs are entirely useless and only exist as an exercise in futility.
Most people ignore them.
You should do likewise.

Another consideration is that the tenant living there is entitled to change the electricity supplier and tariff to whatever they want, so you doing it for them is a complete waste of time and will achieve nothing.

 

[AndyPRK]

I think landlords have to care these days.