How would you repair this?

[RF Lighting]

I’ve been to start a job today and upon lifting a piece of floor, I’ve found some gnawed cables.

I am on this job to install a new fire alarm system. I have some new cabling to run very near this location and for my own protection want to repair the cabling before I start work near it.

The job is in a scout and guide hut, so funds are limited as always.

Obviously replacing the cable would be the ideal situation but is not really practicable. I realise there may well be other damage elsewhere and I will be taking precautions to keep myself safe.

What would you do in this situation?

 

[JohnW2]

A fairly familiar sight! At least there is little, if any, visible copper yet (at least, in the small area you have exposed), as compared with ....

If it were me (clearly no indication of anything much), I think the first thing I would do (if you haven't already) would probably be to lift a few more boards here and there, to get a feel for the extent of the problem. If there is a lot more, then I think the best you could probably do would be to try to help with some fundraising to facilitate 'doing it properly' for all affected cables.

However, if it transpired that the problem appeared to be restricted to what you have showed us, I confess that (given the financial constraints) I would probably be inclined to just replace the damaged bits 'locally' using pairs of MF JBs [if I had more faith in them, and lots of experience in using them, I might consider crimped (and adequately insulated) joints].

Either way, of course, I would very strongly advise them that the 'cause' had to be addressed (if it hasn't already).

Kind Regards, John

 

[blup]

Isn't this crying out for a full EICR and a visit by the local Environmental Health team?

Blup

 

[SUNRAY]

I’ve been to start a job today and upon lifting a piece of floor, I’ve found some gnawed cables.

I am on this job to install a new fire alarm system. I have some new cabling to run very near this location and for my own protection want to repair the cabling before I start work near it.

The job is in a scout and guide hut, so funds are limited as always.

Obviously replacing the cable would be the ideal situation but is not really practicable. I realise there may well be other damage elsewhere and I will be taking precautions to keep myself safe.

What would you do in this situation?


View attachment 202446

It looks to me as if they are imperial sized cables and will be 40++ years old, well overdue for an overhaul IMO.
By that I'm not advocating a rewire, just a thorough inspection bearing in mind the 'public' nature of the building.

We [being regular hirers of the hall for a panto and included 2 qualified sparks] had a battle with Church [building owners] and Scouts [lessee] to do some sorting out where the wiring had been ammended by many helpers over the years and much of it left a lot to be desired, the final straw wascables running behind storage shelves gettin damaged by kit being stored and one of the cubs got a shock while getting a camping stove.
This is the building where the loft lighting was on a 13A plug to avoid having to produce paperwork.

 

[bernardgreen]

so funds are limited as always.

back in the days before H&S and overcooked regulatory committees a scout hut ( owned by the scout group ) was re-wired and re-plumbed with Scouts working on a "Bob a Job" basis with sponsors ( mainly parents ) donating the Bobs and local merchants helping out with materials.

An experienced electrician and plumber designed and supervised the installation but all the grunt work was done be the scouts ( and a few parents ).

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

The Scouting organisation have an obligation to keep their buildings safe, and if they can't afford it they should close them down.

 

[JohnD]

the days before H&S and overcooked regulatory committees

I'm sure that could be put in different words to give a different slant.

 

[blup]

It would interesting to know the results of the IR test on those cables.

Blup

 

[JohnW2]

Isn't this crying out for a full EICR ....

The problem there is that a standard "full EICR" would probably fail to detect even what RF stumbled across, let alone what could possibly be the same sort of problem on a much larger scale, and hence could well give (potentially dangerous) "false confidence". For obvious reasons, the cable I illustrated above with rodent damage to the extent of exposing all conductors IRd fine.

That's why I suggested that, if it were me, I think my first step would be to try myself to discover the extent of the problem (by lifting floorboards). IF one could somehow satisfy oneself that the problem was limited to what RF has seen, then I seen nothing electrically (or 'safety-wise') wrong with repairing in the manner I suggested.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I had a squirrel in my loft and it ate the top surface off a live lighting cable, almost the whole length between 2 fittings but not touched any other cables. It tripped on Christmas eve but obviousely had taken a number of days/visits to chew through that much PVC. They had also chewed most of the casing of an ultrasonic deterrant.

EDIT: I took the opportunity to remove the 40 year old borrowed neutral and revert back to 2 lighting circuits

 

[blup]

The problem there is that a standard "full EICR" would probably fail to detect even what RF stumbled across, let alone what could possibly be the same sort of problem on a much larger scale, and hence could well give (potentially dangerous) "false confidence". For obvious reasons, the cable I illustrated above with rodent damage to the extent of exposing all conductors IRd fine.

That's why I suggested that, if it were me, I think my first step would be to try myself to discover the extent of the problem (by lifting floorboards). IF one could somehow satisfy oneself that the problem was limited to what RF has seen, then I seen nothing electrically (or 'safety-wise') wrong with repairing in the manner I suggested.

Kind Regards, John

An EICR carried out after, and in the light of, RF's discovery, must surely involve specifically testing and inspecting the cable runs in question, or at least highlight the need for such further investigations. In practice I think that is what your suggestion would amount to, formally or otherwise.

I would add the local fire safety officer to the list of people who might be invited to advise.

Blup

 

[EFLImpudence]

No, your not supposed to dismantle the installation for an EICR, let alone the building.

 

[JohnW2]

An EICR carried out after, and in the light of, RF's discovery, must surely involve specifically testing and inspecting the cable runs in question..

Well, some sort of inspection such as you are describing might be advisable/required (in view of RF's finding) - but an EICR would not. My comments were specifically in the response to the suggestion that "a full" EICR should be undertaken - as I said, that could well reveal nothing, and hence give potentially dangerous 'false confidence/reassurance'.

As I said at the start, the obvious need is for someone to lift a good few (maybe all!) floorboards to discover the extent of the problem - but there's no way that would be done in the course of an EICR.

Kind Regards, John

 

[chivers67]

That Lower Grey Cable looks like it's mauled quite badly. Sounds a bit daft given some insulation is stripped back to bare minimum but I think I'd have to do an IR Test on individual circuits to determine if it's safe. Ideally replace, Self amalgamating tape might help as would a type of Wrap around Heat Shrink Tape but it could be a Fire Hazard or have Nuisance tripping in future. Is that a Cooker circuit, sockets and Lighting or is there anything else?

The building needs to be sealed better from Rodent infestation. They must have insurance?

 

[RF Lighting]

Now here’s the problem. There are only 2 or 3 mini traps to the floor void for fishing cables through etc. The vast majority of the building is plywood boarding nailed on top of the floor boards, and then carpet / Lino glued to the plywood. I’ll try my best to look under the floor with mirrors etc.

The Scouting organisation have an obligation to keep their buildings safe, and if they can't afford it they should close them down.

This seems rather knee jerk. No one is suggesting that they have any intention to leave their building unsafe. That is why I’m there installing a new fire alarm in the first place.