Soundproofing For Neighbour Extension - Link Detached

[ReganAndCarter]

My brother has a link detached bungalow (Single garage linking each bungalow). At present the neighbours garage is the other side of the type B party wall. They want to raise the garage roof level (which I don't think they can onto a type B party wall) and extend their kitchen into their garage with a dining area.

He's very worried because his bedroom is against this party wall, but because it's only a garage the other side at present there's no noise. If the work goes ahead, he will have a noisy working/social area the other side of bedroom wall.

If he agrees to the work, what sort of soundproofing should he be insisting on? I don't think just letting the builder put some rubber backed plaster board is going to be enough. I think a professionally installed soundproofing system is needed, but what should he be insisting on?

Also, to make the conversion work they need to raise the garage roof because it is quite low and the floor level of garage will need to be raised to match the floor level in their house. I've told him he could poss stop the whole project because they can't raise the garage roof level where it joins onto a type B party wall. They are only allowed to work within the existing enclosure ie. the roof and front and rear elevations of existing garage.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

No idea about the Type B party wall bit, has anyone done any noise testing with the current setup (ie can he hear car noises in the garage).
It may all be moot if the bungalows are recent build, their planning permission may have been conditional with offstreet parking for x vehicles, be worth checking deeds etc for any covenants.
If he does have to give permission i'd suggest that he attaches a condition to that permission along the lines of 'the dividing wall shall provide at least 70dB of noise reduction by all paths (mechanical, airborne or other) at all audible and inaudible frequencies)' . Up to their builders how they achieve whatever he asks forw

 

[^woody^]

First, would this get planning permission as it's creating terracing?

Secondly, the neighbour can't use the wall above the garage (the section of wall currently enclosed), that's not a party wall. He'll need to create a new wall on his side of the boundary.

For party wall work, normally he could not insist on anything better than building regulation standard or whatever the BS is that the b/regs refer to. But if not too onerous, then it may be possible to request/agree something better than the b/regs standard.

The neighbour can raise a floor, nothing to do with party wall act

 

[ReganAndCarter]

No idea about the Type B party wall bit, has anyone done any noise testing with the current setup (ie can he hear car noises in the garage).
It may all be moot if the bungalows are recent build, their planning permission may have been conditional with offstreet parking for x vehicles, be worth checking deeds etc for any covenants.
If he does have to give permission i'd suggest that he attaches a condition to that permission along the lines of 'the dividing wall shall provide at least 70dB of noise reduction by all paths (mechanical, airborne or other) at all audible and inaudible frequencies)' . Up to their builders how they achieve whatever he asks forw

Thanks for your reply. No noise testing done and no cars have been parked in neighbour's garage since my brother lived there. It's early 60s build bungalow. Good idea about insisting on certain soundproofing spec. However my brother is unlikely to agree to the works. He escaped a flat previously because he had really bad noise problems from a psychotic neighbour upstairs. Really doesn't want people other side of wall.

Apart from the fact that the neighbours want to put the kitchen cabinets on the wall the other side from where the headboard is on his bed, the neighbours have shown zero consideration. They didn't warn him that any work was taking place. First he knew was when a load of noise started which made it difficult to work because he works from home. Then the work halted and they finally contacted my brother because the builder suddenly realised they needed a party wall agreement which should have been in place 2 months before work started.

Next the neighbour lied about where the kitchen was going to try to minimise my brother's noise worries. Tried to pretend kitchen was going in the bedroom they're knocking through from into garage and said it would only be dining area in garage next to party wall. Surveyor finally admitted that kitchen is going against my brother's party wall in garage and turns out they only have kitchen layout plans - no building plans showing the raised garage roof level that they want my brother to agree to. My brother is going to tell them to do one.

 

[ReganAndCarter]

First, would this get planning permission as it's creating terracing?

Secondly, the neighbour can't use the wall above the garage (the section of wall currently enclosed), that's not a party wall. He'll need to create a new wall on his side of the boundary.

For party wall work, normally he could not insist on anything better than building regulation standard or whatever the BS is that the b/regs refer to. But if not too onerous, then it may be possible to request/agree something better than the b/regs standard.

The neighbour can raise a floor, nothing to do with party wall act

Thanks Woody. Good point about terracing. Though someone a few bungalows along has converted garage into a bedroom, but we think it was done without permission because owner is a retired builder. And thanks for confirming about the party wall. They need to raise the existing garage roof to make the project work. Firstly there isn't a lot of head height in the garage and because they're knocking through the external wall of a bedroom into the garage so they have dining area in the bedroom and you walk through the opened up wall into the garage which will now be the kitchen area. Because the floor level in the bedroom is higher than garage floor level they need to raise the garage floorto make the whole area level which makes head height in garage area even worse. Then the new garage roof will need to be higher to accommodate some insulation because it is now part of a habitable area.

There is only 2 or 3 brick courses between the top of neighbour's existing garage roof and the overhang of my brother's roof, which overhangs their garage roof. So another consideration is if they raise garage roof higher, my brother will find it difficult to maintain the roof overhang because their new garage roof will be right under it. Also supposing they need to leave a fire break, but not sure on that one.

 

[^woody^]

Is all this just talk at the moment? It's difficult to see how it could be acceptable to planners, and nothing can be physically attached to the gable without express permission, else it's a trespass.

 

[frutbunn]

OP just to clarify a previous comments, this work will be subject to certain aspects of the B Regs ie structural work, thermal insulation, however as it is not a change of use Part E (sound insulation) cannot be required by B Regs.

 

[^woody^]

OP just to clarify a previous comments, this work will be subject to certain aspects of the B Regs ie structural work, thermal insulation, however as it is not a change of use Part E (sound insulation) cannot be required by B Regs.

Just to clarify, changing the use of the air above a garage roof to a room, is not a change of use?

 

[frutbunn]

OP On an unrelated subject, back in the 80's when Autotrader was a weekly paper there was a Granada from the Sweeney for sale locally, not sure if it's the same one in pic, but I nearly went to have a look until I priced the insurance, they didn't appreciate the V6 motor!!! Ended up with another Mk2 Escort, back in the days when you could buy a half decent one for less than the price of a decent second hand door these days. How I miss driving sideways.

 

[ReganAndCarter]

OP On an unrelated subject, back in the 80's when Autotrader was a weekly paper there was a Granada from the Sweeney for sale locally, not sure if it's the same one in pic, but I nearly went to have a look until I priced the insurance, they didn't appreciate the V6 motor!!! Ended up with another Mk2 Escort, back in the days when you could buy a half decent one for less than the price of a decent second hand door these days. How I miss driving sideways.

Thanks for the interesting anecdote. NHK 295M that featured in the earlier series' was designated as a Consul (though Ford soon dropped this name in favour of Granada) is still in existence if it's the one you refer to as being for sale. It was for sale in the Slough area in 1988 before being taken off the road and put into storage. In recent years it's been restored to it's former glory. There was another Granada used in the later series - a silver MK2.

https://classiccarcuration.co.uk/youre-nicked-restored-sweeney-consul-heads-to-nec-classic/

Agree that some of the cars from that era were a bit tail-happy. Had some interesting moments when pushing a 2.8 Capri a bit too hard.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

I know diddly squat about building regs, however my concern for your brother would be this, I'm taking a kind of worst case scenario. Let's say their plans get approved and let's say the builder completes the works in accordance with regs. Depending on how good those regs are in terms of soundproofing between the properties and depending on how loud the neighbours are, the noise levels might still be unacceptable to your brother? Many of us have experienced noise issues with neighbours and, depending on how bad our experience has been, it can leave you heightened to almost any noise you hear thereafter coming from the neighbours, even if it would be deemed a socially acceptable noise.

As an example, my mate lives in an apartment and his bedroom is directly over the bedroom of the downstairs apartment. So poor is the sound insulation, he can hear the guy downstairs snoring! It's got to the stage where he sometimes struggles to get to sleep cause he's lying there waiting for the downstairs snoring to start! Obviously the guy won't be aware he's causing this effect on his upstairs neighbour.

Regardless of how it plays out, I hope it concludes in a way your brother finds satisfactory.

 

[frutbunn]

Agree that some of the cars from that era were a bit tail-happy. Had some interesting moments when pushing a 2.8 Capri a bit too hard.

I meant it as a good fun thing, hate front wheel drives. I could drive an escort in a straight line with the car at 30 degrees in the snow, used to fit Colway forest tyres it with tubes so I could drop the tyre pressures down to 10lb for the snow and not worry about them pushing off the rims but then I discovered the virtues of proper 4x4's and got into trialing.
Must have been the silver one I saw, unless someone was trying to pass another one off.

 

[ReganAndCarter]

I know diddly squat about building regs, however my concern for your brother would be this, I'm taking a kind of worst case scenario. Let's say their plans get approved and let's say the builder completes the works in accordance with regs. Depending on how good those regs are in terms of soundproofing between the properties and depending on how loud the neighbours are, the noise levels might still be unacceptable to your brother? Many of us have experienced noise issues with neighbours and, depending on how bad our experience has been, it can leave you heightened to almost any noise you hear thereafter coming from the neighbours, even if it would be deemed a socially acceptable noise.

As an example, my mate lives in an apartment and his bedroom is directly over the bedroom of the downstairs apartment. So poor is the sound insulation, he can hear the guy downstairs snoring! It's got to the stage where he sometimes struggles to get to sleep cause he's lying there waiting for the downstairs snoring to start! Obviously the guy won't be aware he's causing this effect on his upstairs neighbour.

Regardless of how it plays out, I hope it concludes in a way your brother finds satisfactory.

Thanks, DIY. Yes this is the point. My brother lived in a flat for several years of hell. When he bought the place he asked the owners who was living in the flat upstairs. They just said, "oh it's Ken, he's in his 70s and no problem". They didn't mention that his psycho nut-job grandson also lived with him. There was noise all hours, police, ambulances, social services. Because my brother complained it got worse. Used to Hoover their wooden staircase at 10pm which was very noisy for my brother. The grandson would shout and scream at his grandfather. Several times you would be sitting in loung and all was quiet, then what sounded like a bookcase being toppled above would make you jump. Other things got thrown, doors slammed. Washing machine on all hours. They slept in late because they didn't work and were active late at night. He had water through the ceiling twice - once when moron grandson broke toilet and another when he closed washing machine door with towel jammed in the seal. Very stressful.

He sold up to get away and vowed to only have detached. So yes, that's why he doesn't want the garage converted because of very bad experiences. The present people may be reasonable, but who know what future owners of the house next door will be like.

(Apologies for digressing. I realise this has nothing to do with building)

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Thanks, DIY. Yes this is the point. My brother lived in a flat for several years of hell. When he bought the place he asked the owners who was living in the flat upstairs. They just said, "oh it's Ken, he's in his 70s and no problem". They didn't mention that his psycho nut-job grandson also lived with him. There was noise all hours, police, ambulances, social services. Because my brother complained it got worse. Used to Hoover their wooden staircase at 10pm which was very noisy for my brother. The grandson would shout and scream at his grandfather. Several times you would be sitting in loung and all was quiet, then what sounded like a bookcase being toppled above would make you jump. Other things got thrown, doors slammed. Washing machine on all hours. They slept in late because they didn't work and were active late at night. He had water through the ceiling twice - once when moron grandson broke toilet and another when he closed washing machine door with towel jammed in the seal. Very stressful.

He sold up to get away and vowed to only have detached. So yes, that's why he doesn't want the garage converted because of very bad experiences. The present people may be reasonable, but who know what future owners of the house next door will be like.

(Apologies for digressing. I realise this has nothing to do with building)

I appreciate this might be not be feasible and is easier said than done, however if your brother is in a position to move, he could always keep that option up his sleeve as a last resort? See how it all plays out. Even if the extension goes ahead, it might not impact him that much noise wise? And if it does whether by these neighbours or new ones, consider moving.

When I first moved out of the family home, I only considered semi-detached properties and tried to find ones that were door to door (so living quarters detached.) In the end I ended up moving out of my home town (which I didn't really want to do) to an adjoining town as I could get myself into a small totally detached property for £x less than comparable properties in my home town.

Like I say I hope it concludes in a satisfactory way for him.

 

[ReganAndCarter]

I appreciate this might be not be feasible and is easier said than done, however if your brother is in a position to move, he could always keep that option up his sleeve as a last resort? See how it all plays out. Even if the extension goes ahead, it might not impact him that much noise wise? And if it does whether by these neighbours or new ones, consider moving.

When I first moved out of the family home, I only considered semi-detached properties and tried to find ones that were door to door (so living quarters detached.) In the end I ended up moving out of my home town (which I didn't really want to do) to an adjoining town as I could get myself into a small totally detached property for £x less than comparable properties in my home town.

Like I say I hope it concludes in a satisfactory way for him.

Thanks again. Yes, Moving is something he mentioned, but can cost a lot. I think it's mainly the fact that it's his bedroom one side of wall where you need it quiet and a kitchen other side that can be a noisy working area with all hard surfaces that amplify the noise. You wouldn't design a house with bedroom next to kitchen.

He's adamant he won't allow their roof to be raised which will scupper the project. It's not just the potential for noise, but their total lack of communication and consideration about the work.