So if I stick to 14KW I don't need a new fuse

[ericmark]

If my fuse was changed from 60 to 100 amp it would not change how much power I used. And as @JohnW2 says most networks could not supply 60 amp to all homes.

All new EV points are connected to the network, and the controller has the option to turn off EV charging points to maintain the network, so they can shed that 30 amp load when ever they want, so the whole idea of limiting supply to 60 amp does not make sense.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

If my fuse was changed from 60 to 100 amp it would not change how much power I used.

Likewise, here, but....If you had asked for it upgrading, you would have asked for a reason - that you needed increased energy capacity. It is a restriction on how much instantaneous load you can apply, exceed it, and you lose supply.

And as @JohnW2 says most networks could not supply 60 amp to all homes.

No network is. They are spec'ed for the average maximum, which is set to have to be dramatically increased by the EV's and heat pumps.

 

[ericmark]

EV charging points and heat pumps are very different, the EV charging point can be turned off by the DNO when demand is high, the heat pump would require a general power cut to turn it off.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

EV charging points and heat pumps are very different, the EV charging point can be turned off by the DNO when demand is high, the heat pump would require a general power cut to turn it off.

Yes, but the point is that the average maximum, will rise dramatically once these things are forced upon us.

 

[ericmark]

With heat pumps yes. With EV charging no. Since the DNO can turn them off, they can limit the maximum power used.

This idea goes back many years, think it was around 1980 my dad stopped working, and I know he had to limit power used at peak times, he was in charge of the power used by a steel works, his power station was a real power station, and he controlled blast furnace gas, coal gas, oil, and electric, and he had to balance what was used when.

The EV charging point with it's wifi link to DNO gives the DNO to power to decide when the power is used, if they don't use the option, that's their problem, not the householders.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

With heat pumps yes. With EV charging no. Since the DNO can turn them off, they can limit the maximum power used.

This idea goes back many years, think it was around 1980 my dad stopped working, and I know he had to limit power used at peak times, he was in charge of the power used by a steel works, his power station was a real power station, and he controlled blast furnace gas, coal gas, oil, and electric, and he had to balance what was used when.

Despite the ability to delay the charging, you still cannot escape the fact that they will need charging at some point during the night - so the average maximum increases quite dramatically.

No doubt your dad's power station was built with that average maximum demand as part of the spec.. The UK power network was never designed to match these loads. It was initially designed with coal fires in the home, though many then replaced coal for heat with gas and vehicles driven by liquid fuel.

The cable in my street was installed in the mid 1950's, when my present home was heated by coal and then there was a gradual move to gas heating. As more people acquired cars, they were petrol powered, so neither had an impact on that supply cable.

Now suddenly, we expect that cable to be able to charge 1 to 4 cars per household and simultaneously heat those homes with heat pumps. Sorry, but it will not work or even come near to working without major upgrades to the entire network.

 

[ericmark]

I think you are correct, the government is living in cloud 9 if it thinks EV charging can be done without a major up grade, we started with the national grid in 1933 and last hamlet June 2003 Cwm Brefi, in Ceredigion, so looking at history we can see likely time scale 70 years.

However as it stands the DNO can turn off EV chargers, it does not seem a good idea I would agree, to walk out to your car and find not enough fuel for the day, across the road to where I did live the Milk man decided to get an electric Kango van, range 100 miles, round 68 miles, so should have been no problem, however quite a few times one would see the van on side of road awaiting recovery where he had not made it home.

Why it did not make it every so often I don't know for sure, but if once a week he used the petrol pick-up, he had no problem, so it would seem being plugged in 11 am to 4 am was not enough to fully recharge it.

I see the amount the two charging points in the village are being used, just outside where I work one day a week, when I moved here there was one guy who visited his mother in the village used it, now rare not to see a car on charge, it is the only 22 kW charge point in miles, and can only charge 2 cars at a time, not seen anyone queueing up yet, but next charge point is only 7 kW so you can see why people come here first.

The whole concept of EV needs re-thinking, my e-bike can take me around 20 miles with a battery light enough to take it into the house to recharge it, 12 Ah 48 volt. So a car doing 100 miles with 4 people should need 20 times that size, but in fact it is many times that size because of all the reinforced protection around the battery and people, cars are so heavy they use well over the power required because of the weight.

There are no crumple zones etc around a cyclist be it push or motor, they know they are vulnerable so ride carefully, and use same roads as car users, there was once a survey done on insurance claims on different cars to see which car had least accidents, it was the Reliant three wheeler, clearly not the safest car, worst was Volvo.

Yes I am one of those who drives around in a 4 x 4, it was bought to tow the caravan, now gone, I also have a light petrol car Honda Jazz, and because the big one is diesel and little one petrol they do same MPG. So I use the big one far more than I should.

As if I had an electric car, then if not charged over night, I would simply use another car that day, but most people don't have spare cars.

 

[JohnW2]

With heat pumps yes. With EV charging no. Since the DNO can turn them off, they can limit the maximum power used.

As has been said, EVs need charging ('some time', and regularly), and the government want everyone to change to EVs. If the capabilities of the network remain as they currently are, there would be so much 'switching' off that millions of people would be left with cars that they could not use, at least when they wanted/needed to use them. Not only would that probably be an 'election-loser' for any government but it wood essentially become an 'impossible' situation, and a whole new industry to convert EVs back to having internal combustion engines would have to appear

Kind Regards, John

 

[flameport]

the EV charging point can be turned off by the DNO when demand is high,

Completely untrue.
No home charging equipment can be turned off by any DNO. Neither can any other electrical items in a home.

 

[ericmark]

Government-funded electric vehicle home chargepoints must include 'smart technology' to help drivers limit costs from next month, the Department for Transport has announced.

Wall chargers installed in homes will require smart features that encourage cheaper, off-peak charging and minimise the impact of electric vehicles on the electricity system by reducing demand peaks, the DfT said.

From July 1, devices backed by the Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme must be capable of being remotely accessed.

I thought it was already in, seems not yet, seems to be like the contactor built into smart meters where they say it will not be used, big question if it is not going to be used, why fit it.

 

[JohnD]

Completely untrue.
No home charging equipment can be turned off by any DNO. Neither can any other electrical items in a home.

Yet.

 

[JohnD]

As if I had an electric car, then if not charged over night, I would simply use another car that day, but most people don't have spare cars.

Some of the current electric cars have a range of 250 miles or more, which for most people would cover several typical days or I think a week for an average driver.

At one time I used to drive 415 miles to work, but only drove there once a week, and home at the end of the week. I would not want to do that again.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Some of the current electric cars have a range of 250 miles or more, which for most people would cover several typical days or I think a week for an average driver.

At one time I used to drive 415 miles to work, but only drove there once a week, and home at the end of the week. I would not want to do that again.

I spent my life working all over the UK and at time the EU, a 1000 per week was typical for me and I loved every minute of the drive. The bit I hated, was the times when I became used to the same roads, I liked the fresh scenary.

 

[Steven Prentice]

60A Supply.... I am sure I read this week that they electrical networks were designed on an average of 20A per house, something like that.. but big issues coming up if we all want to plug our electric cars in on Good Friday after work, a top up charge ready for an Easter get-away. Partly the push for smart meters to charge more at peak times and save a massive infrastructure upgrade

 

[JohnW2]

60A Supply.... I am sure I read this week that they electrical networks were designed on an average of 20A per house, something like that..

I think you'll find that the average is quite a lot less than that.

... but big issues coming up if we all want to plug our electric cars in on Good Friday after work, a top up charge ready for an Easter get-away.

Quite so.

Partly the push for smart meters to charge more at peak times and save a massive infrastructure upgrade

If the total demand increases greatly because of EVs, heat pumps and a move away from gas cooking etc., then no amount of 'punitive tariffs' would alter the fact that total available energy supply (over a period of time) has to be at least as great as the total demand. Furthermore these changes will probably markedly alter the timing of 'peak' periods and, indeed, may have the effect of largely flattening the variation in demand during the 24 hours.

Much more energy (not just instantaneous power) demand inevitably will require considerably more generation and also the "massive infrastructure upgrade" (to the distribution network) to which you refer - and I see very little sign of any of that happening at the moment.

Kind Regards, John