Ukraine counter offensive

[JohnD]

...Germany could donate their old Leopard 1 tanks but I don't know how well they stack up against T72s. They were under armoured and under gunned.

After the Wall came down, BRD inherited a large amount of Warsaw Pact equipment, including a lot of T72s. They evaluated these, comparing them to early Leopards with a view to adopting them into the Bundeswehr. They decided against, but may have been biased.

Some commentary here

AFAIK Germany only uses Leopard 2 now, and sold off most of its old stock during the Cold War's half-time interval. Greece, Finand and Poland bought hundreds. Germany has an active production line for the latest Leopards to the export market.

 

[Charlie George]

Nearly all European countries downsized their armed forces after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and now we spend a fortune on hi tech equipment in smaller quantities, and have neglected tanks/artillery and munitions and the such, the Uk spends more than russia on defence, we have better equipment, but in far lower numbers @10% of their number in manpower, and even as low as 2% in tanks/MLRS/artillery, and it's the same story with Germany/France etc.

In the next few years i can see European countries spending heavily and re-arming, and going back to basics, using the type of equipment that has done well in the war, as well as investing in high tech such as fighters/drones/missile defence etc, and also stockpiling munitions (we have enough for a 2 week large scale war) like we did in the past.

 

[transam]

Russian doctrine states afaik

That they will use nuclear weapons in order to defend Russian territory from attack

The Turks are becoming more critical of Russia ???

 

[IT Minion]

After the Wall came down, BRD inherited a large amount of Warsaw Pact equipment, including a lot of T72s. They evaluated these, comparing them to early Leopards with a view to adopting them into the Bundeswehr. They decided against, but may have been biased.

Some commentary here

AFAIK Germany only uses Leopard 2 now, and sold off most of its old stock during the Cold War's half-time interval. Greece, Finand and Poland bought hundreds. Germany has an active production line for the latest Leopards to the export market.

Yeah, the Leopard 1s have thinner armour than the T72 and an undersized gun that might not be able to destroy a T 72. Not that useful after all.

 

[JohnD]

Yeah, the Leopard 1s have thinner armour than the T72 and an undersized gun that might not be able to destroy a T 72. Not that useful after all.

But they no longer use Leopard 1 so it doesn't matter

 

[motorbiking]

Are tanks really that useful without troops on the ground to defend? £1000 drones seem quite effective at taking them out.

In any case Putin has announced the "defence" of his liberated people, escalation starts today. Looks like he plans to scale up the attack. He's also stepped up the rhetoric warning the west of more trouble if they keep annoying him.

 

[Odds]

Are tanks really that useful without troops on the ground to defend? £1000 drones seem quite effective at taking them out.

In any case Putin has announced the "defence" of his liberated people, escalation starts today. Looks like he plans to scale up the attack. He's also stepped up the rhetoric warning the west of more trouble if they keep annoying him.

That's a good question, and the way drones have been deployed in this conflict suggests they'll have to adapt to the new threat posed by this aerial menace. Mind you, the way Russian commanders have deployed their armour has been shocking: naive at best, incompetent at worst, they've simply rumbled along streets waiting for a javelin to stop them in their tracks.
In fact, the military command structure has been gravely deficient in planning and execution during this campaign. They still think they can swarm over the enemy using strength in numbers like it's 1944 and haven't even sent their men into combat with adequate equipment. I read of crowdfunding efforts in Russia to send to men at the front and after the hasty retreat/withdrawal from Izyum left behind a great deal of munitions they'll have to dig deep into their pockets.
It's going to be a long, cold winter. Send socks.

 

[IT Minion]

Russia has announced mobilisation. Veterans with useful skills and reservists will start be be called up. Existing contracts for soldiers are extended indefinitely.

 

[IT Minion]

Are tanks really that useful without troops on the ground to defend? £1000 drones seem quite effective at taking them out.

In any case Putin has announced the "defence" of his liberated people, escalation starts today. Looks like he plans to scale up the attack. He's also stepped up the rhetoric warning the west of more trouble if they keep annoying him.

Hobbyist drones can't really hurt tanks unless they've been abandoned. Then they can drop bombs through the tank hatches or just keep pecking away until the 12th bomb does real damage. They mostly use small mortar rounds or grenades which aren't meant to penetrate that much armour.

But tanks need to be supported by infantry, otherwise they're mostly blind thanks to restricted visibility and the other side's infantry can sneak up with £1000 NLAWs or Javelins, and they will take out a tank.

The big drones also eat them for lunch if they don't have air defence.

 

[Vinty]

So far, a defeat of Russia is not a defined objective, just the withdrawal of Russia from Ukraine.

Withdrawal from Ukraine would be a defeat for Russia.
So far Putin has been trying to win a war on the cheap, if he wants to win he will have to escalate.
When push comes to shove, the Chinese will support Russia, China has the industrial capacity to supply the Russians in much the same way the Americans supplied the allies in WW2.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

Withdrawal from Ukraine would be a defeat for Russia.
So far Putin has been trying to win a war on the cheap, if he wants to win he will have to escalate.
When push comes to shove, the Chinese will support Russia, China has the industrial capacity to supply the Russians in much the same way the Americans supplied the allies in WW2.

And that is the big question. Will they ?

 

[Deleted member 174758]

And that is the big question. Will they ?

Only at the risk of losing their markets in the West

 

[carmanmemoranda]

Only at the risk of losing their markets in the West

And I think that is part of the reason for the sanctions, China will be taking note of them.

 

[transam]

Is Putin sabre rattling / bluffing

With the threat of nuclear war ?

 

[Dork Lard]

Is Putin sabre rattling / bluffing

With the threat of nuclear war ?

Putin is not threatening "nuclear war" in the way that your MSM would like you to perceive.

Mutually assured destruction is just that.