Risk of missing out spur sockets

[Jupiter01]

Curious. When you are first fixing the electrics and have designed a Ring Final and then come back a few weeks later to second fix, you will know that all sockets are connected - and you haven’t missed one - as you will have continuity across the ring.

I imagine the same is true for a radial as you can test continuity across the conductors.

When you have a spur (or several) off a Ring, how can you be sure that you haven’t just missed that socket off? i.e. you have wired the spur into one of the existing sockets but left the other end of the cables (live) hanging mid-air. Perhaps they’re behind a cupboard or something. Is there a test that picks this up and avoids this risk?

I am sure you will have socket plans and will walk around to inspect.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[flameport]

There is no test.
It's up to the installer to confirm everything is properly terminated and connected before anything is energised.
That can also include situations where plastering types have covered over sockets and other items with plasterboard, bonding or other miscellaneous slop either accidentally or deliberately.

It's not just restricted to rings either - anything at the end of a radial would also be undetectable by testing, and that includes all circuits, not just those for sockets. Also applies where 'tree' type arrangements have been used, which is a radial with more than one endpoint.

 

[ericmark]

Not just electrics, I remember a pipe line being tested, and there was an unknown spur, the open ended pipe was about a meter from what was like the huts used on the railway, the 6" pig (pipe inspection gauge) put an 8" hole in the wall where it went into the hut, and took whole of wall away when it came out.

In the main we have a count, we have been asked for x socket outlets, and if when we come to second fix we only find x - 1 outlets, it's a hammer on the plaster board until missing one is found.

In the main same person does first and second fix, but I have had it where the electrician was taken ill, so I had to do second fix, lucky is was a house on an estate, so looked in another house to find where the missing socket was likely to be.

 

[plugwash]

You could count the number of "branch points" and compare that number to the number of "end of lines".

 

[Jupiter01]

Thanks for the responses. I suppose a lighting circuit is another typical example as it could be branching all over the place. Again, I think it relies on the electrician documenting the number of end points to be sure that none are left behind?

 

[blup]

Imagine what its like for a sparky doing an eicr on a property that has had a variety of diyer bodges over the years, a lot of it isn’t / can’t be picked up.

Blup

 

[Jupiter01]

Imagine what its like for a sparky doing an eicr on a property that has had a variety of diyer bodges over the years, a lot of it isn’t / can’t be picked up.

Blup

Presumably bodges by "electricians" too?
I suppose when you are doing an EICR, the continuity reading at the spurred sockets will always be higher? This will prompt you to inspect further?

 

[Taylortwocities]

Back in my day, one used to test each point to determine the Zs. I'm hoping that is something you do MR @Jupiter01

 

[blup]

Presumably bodges by "electricians" too?
I suppose when you are doing an EICR, the continuity reading at the spurred sockets will always be higher? This will prompt you to inspect further?

Electricians reflect society generally, there's good, bad, and few rotten apples. It's funny that only the good ones with high standards ever contribute to forums.

Blup

 

[ebee]

Years ago I had 12 house rewires running at the same time all first fixed then waiting for others , off course the other trades will not allow you in whilst they doing X and Y and Z then they all want you at once. Anyway one day I went to final fix one I`d last seen a few months ago. Hmm I`m sure there was one around here I was thinking as a plumber fitting a radiator "Nowt here mate", he says " I checked before piping for radiator". Anyway I stopped him fitting radiator before I checked , metal detector left right up down, marked X then chiselled in, right into middle of a backbox. The builder unsure how much plaster would go on walls at the time and he`d asked me to allow for all contingencies so I had chased box in allowing for 15mm of plaster. Turns out somebody had done browning plaster coat and left a small witness hole but then a different person had done the final plaster coat and filled the hole in, so the the plumber had been presented with a flat finished wall to which he was going to fit a radiator on. It was a ring final (Did I just hear Flameport hiss?) so I would have noticed it on testing.

PS the box was buried about 40mm below the surface too. LOL.

 

[JohnW2]

Electricians reflect society generally, there's good, bad, and few rotten apples.

Indeed so. As we currently are only too well aware, that general true applies to police officers, not to mention MPs and possibly members of the Royal Family, as well as people in every other walk of life.

It's funny that only the good ones with high standards ever contribute to forums.

I would have thought that such would make sense, rather than being 'funny' (one would wonder why 'bad ones' would want to contribute to a forum), but I'm not convinced that what you say is actually universally true! There are certainly a good few 'people' (not necessarily relevant professionals/ tradespeople) who contribute to many a forum with 'advice' thatvis far from good (or necessarily correct)!

Kind Regards, John

 

[blup]

There is a tendency for the pro's in all walks of life to be critical of the work of others but we are all guilty of short cuts.

Blup

 

[Adam_151]

I remember a job where a load of subbies had been throughn at a housing job and it seemed that they guy running it had been absent for a bit while these subbies were first fixing and it seems the teams had changed about and not communicated and not looked, everything got boarded, someone came into to the second fix testing had been religated to an after thought. One of them had a downstairs ring that was fine on continuity, but about half the points would have no continuity on the the cross connect tests, thats when we found out it actually had two downstairs rings, one of which just went round sockets and and didn't go anywhere near the board!

 

[Jupiter01]

I remember a job where a load of subbies had been throughn at a housing job and it seemed that they guy running it had been absent for a bit while these subbies were first fixing and it seems the teams had changed about and not communicated and not looked, everything got boarded, someone came into to the second fix testing had been religated to an after thought. One of them had a downstairs ring that was fine on continuity, but about half the points would have no continuity on the the cross connect tests, thats when we found out it actually had two downstairs rings, one of which just went round sockets and and didn't go anywhere near the board!

Is the extreme solution to have all cables hanging mid-air and buzzing out the other end of them? Presumably this ensures that every wire is accounted for?

 

[JohnW2]

There is a tendency for the pro's in all walks of life to be critical of the work of others but we are all guilty of short cuts.

Very much so - and many of them seem constrained to only give advice on the basis of 'official line'/best practice (often most expensive and/or time-consuming!) answers, even though they may well not practice what they preach. Any of us can determine the 'official'/'best' answers, just by reading, whereas what many of us often actually want is advice on what, in practice, one can reasonably 'get away with'.

An awful lot of what I know about all sorts of disciplines (electrics, plumbing, building, decorating, carpentry, car maintenance etc. etc.) has resulted from my (undoubtedly annoyingly!) spending hours in the past looking closely over the shoulders of tradesmen to see what they actually do (and 'get away with'), which is by no means always what 'the book' says should be done

Kind Regards, John