Dodgy earth… well no earth at all

[Snakeinthegrass]

Ok so my daughter lives in a flat in London , she told me some of her friends have been getting ‘minor shocks’ from the washing machine and microwave. I told her not to use the them and I’d take a look ( thinking it was a few volts floating and a bad earth on a spur).

I turned up with a voltage detector pen and it goes off within a foot of the washing machine and the microwave casing. Checked the consumer unit and there’s just red and blacks out of their sleeve and not an earth wire in sight. The rcd does throw when pressed but with no fault return path at all this can’t be safe at all .

I know there are countries in Europe that don’t earth and just rely on rcds but is there a case in the uk where this is legal ? The whole thing looks like something that I would die if I had had any part of. There’s an inspection sticker in the CU from 21 I just can’t take it seriously

Here’s a picture of the box ( I can see live conductor showing thru the brown e tape and the tenants are in and I it of there constantly to top up the meter

Any words of advice on the legality of this ?

And there’s a picture of how far away the pen squawks from the chassis of the washing machine. I didn’t bring a voltage detector pen meter or any other test stuff so I don’t know any more

Thanks in advance

 

[Jurassicspark]

The first picture looks like a mess.

Could you send a picture of the incoming main fuse?

What is supplying the washing machine and microwave?

I turned up with a voltage detector pen and it goes off within a foot of the washing machine and the microwave casing. Checked the consumer unit and there’s just red and blacks out of their sleeve and not an earth wire in sight.

Could you send a picture of this aswell?

If it's really as you explain then the installation needs to be turned off and fixed as soon as possible.

Is this a rental property?

 

[ericmark]

I can't see the DNO head, so no idea where earth wires go.

In around 2005 came to work on parent's house, and found no earth, I will guess when the water pipes were changed to plastic was when it was lost, but only earth found was for the old GPO party line phone.

But with rented property it needs testing every 5 years, so not picking up on no earth does seem unlikely, what does the paperwork say?

If I stand on a floor at 200 volts and use a non-contact voltage detector, then anything earthed would cause it to light. My step one would be plugged in my tester and press the button, the problem is these testers even the cheapest cost around £75. The non-contact voltage tester will show there is a fault. But no more, it will not show where the fault is. So before having my own loop tester, the way forward is to find someone who has one, likely means employing a scheme member electrician to test the house.

With what you have said, it could be under floor heating at fault, and clearly the fault needs correcting fast.

 

[pete01]

The first picture looks like a mess.

You're not wrong.

 

[AndyPRK]

There are some green earths on the side. Could be sockets.

Maybe wire out the bottom are for lights?

 

[Jurassicspark]

With what you have said, it could be under floor heating at fault, and clearly the fault needs correcting fast.

 

[CountryFan]

Those non contact voltage indicators are not an accurate way of detecting much. To put another way, I had one light up on a wooden door frame, which I took back. The other decent ones I have have also lit up boiler casings, but they’re not “live”. Needless to say, the appliances need checking as does the main earth terminal - which I think is the top left of the photo, behind the dodgy taped up cables.

If the flat is landlord owned then there’s should be a relevant eicr/electrical certificate, usually done on change of tenancy.

Is it just the 2 appliances?

 

[Murdochcat]

If the flat is a rental the landlord is obliged to provide the tenants with and EICR - a satisfactory one or

An unsatisfactory one and the copies of supporting certificates to confirm remedial work has been completed and tested properly

 

[Jurassicspark]

Those non contact voltage indicators are not an accurate way of detecting much. To put another way, I had one light up on a wooden door frame, which I took back.

My fluke NCV detector glows when I rub it on my sleeve.

It won't leave my inventory though.

 

[hllns]

Very shiny consumer unit, looks brand new. strange that a professional would forget to remove the check tightness warning sticker, wonder if they bothered?

In terms of doing a very basic earth check my Kewtech Looptech 107 plugin tester is useful, I had a slight shock off my mum's dishwasher which I traced to a fault in the moulded plug, missing earth and there was the usual amount of small leakage through the suppressor. If it were me I'd be doing a quick check on each circuit to see if it's wider than just what's been noticed so far.

 

[Snakeinthegrass]

Thanks everyone. It’s a rental - it looks so wrong I thought there must be some version of code that I didn’t know about that exempts old properties from needing earths??? The washing machine is in a spur that goes back to a part of the ring at a double socket. I only came equipped with a screwdriver and the detector thinking there would be an earth off or some bit of crap floating loose in the socket… Whoever put the spur in wired it correctly in that it’s connected to the earth of the double socket that it splits off. … Only thing is there’s no earth coming from either direction on the ring. Nothing at all. Which I guess is why the detector lights up like a Christmas tree when I get within a foot of any part of it. The whole thing is floating ! Sorry about the pictures I’ll try and get better ones.

 

[Murdochcat]

There is no code that exempts any homes from not having a CPC for the fuseboard and socket circuits, ovens, hobs, immersions

Lighting circuits are more complicated

Does the property have singles in metal conduit?

 

[Snakeinthegrass]

thanks. I couldn’t dream of a situation in this country where that was the case. So thanks for the confirmation that f that . I know in some European countries there were exemptions with rcds considered protection enough !! ??

I’m very competent at house electrics as I work as a touring sound engineer ( deal with all sorts of crazy situations with 3ph , generator and delta power, ). I just wanted to check I wasn’t talking **** before I go in on the landlord’s sparky. The washing machine and microwave are run off a double socket with a spur off it. No incoming earth from either side of the ring. Metal back box , unearthed , and the girls that live there including my daughter complained of ‘funny tingling’ when they cleaned the sideboard and touched the microwave and washing machine. I’m guessing one of them was leaky and had no drain path.

Either way I’ve told them not to use anything from either of those sockets.

 

[Snakeinthegrass]

Very shiny consumer unit, looks brand new. strange that a professional would forget to remove the check tightness warning sticker, wonder if they bothered?

In terms of doing a very basic earth check my Kewtech Looptech 107 plugin tester is useful, I had a slight shock off my mum's dishwasher which I traced to a fault in the moulded plug, missing earth and there was the usual amount of small leakage through the suppressor. If it were me I'd be doing a quick check on each circuit to see if it's wider than just what's been noticed so far.

Crazy …. Looks like it was put in by a complete chancer tbh. I never trust a CU has no grommets at all in any of the knock outs … this thing has none: a 10mm earth going in but only one earth coming out. All the t&e cables are stripped of the sheathing back to the red and black. ( outside the CU ).
I’ve renovated houses I’ ve lived in , one of them had wiring so old and knackered it had multi strand steel in rubber that was was so badly cooked part of it was completely bare for a metre. But this scares me more than that. Principally because my kid is living there !

 

[ericmark]

I do use a non-contact tester, I think most electricians do, in the non-contact volts range it has 4 stages, handy to find direction to a live part, and the clamps allow as seen here, to measure the earth leakage, without opening a single box.

I agree, one gets a feel for the state of the installation, and this

does ring alarm bells, as to regulations I am not sure, if the cupboard that the consumer unit is in, needs a key or tool to access it, then it could technically comply, since a smart meter does not need access to it to read it, one could technically get away with it.

The problem is, how does someone without the tools test an earth? As said, easy for me, I plug in my loop impedance/RCD tester, select the test, and push a button, using a long wire to a good earth would work, but still need to be sure it is a good earth, I had the problem with parent's house, earth bonding wires everywhere, but it seems although bonded, there was no connection to earth.

Pre-1966, it was permitted not to have an earth to a filament lamp that cannot readily be touched and are out of reach of earthed metal. Today, only the pendent can be without an earth. Anything fixed, like down lights, must have an earth terminated even if class II which can be a problem when changing from 12 volts to 230 volts.

However, you have shown there is a fault, you don't need to work out what the fault is, so now it is text the landlord, or agent, or send an email, remember in law it must be in writing to report an HSE fault, you can phone as well, but make sure you also report in writing, or if anyone is injured they can blame you for not reporting in writing.

Someone is going to get some nice Sunday overtime to make it safe.