Can I add an EV charger for a PHEV to this CU

[ericmark]

If only your electricity meter could distinguish between household use and car charging.

There was a similar problem with narrow boats, where 35 sec gas oil used for both heating the boat and propelling the boat, so the boat owner had to sign to say what parentage when on each.

I note there have been some changes, it seems a generator is now classed as a road vehicle, and you have to use DERV (stands for diesel engine road vehicle) in generators now. So not sure if the narrow boat thing has changed, but there is nothing to stop those with chargers at home from being charged more for their electric.

It seems there is a problem with London's black cabs, they are hybrids, idea was petrol could extend the range, but would run on electric, but the drivers do not use the electric, they are running on petrol instead, taxi's are busy at night, so even if the driver could charge at home, likely he would not be using off-peak, so it seems they can run for an extra hour using petrol, and on public charging stations it is cheaper to use petrol.

 

[JohnW2]

Why? "Because that's how we used to do it" isn't sufficient justification.

Maybe not, but what would you propose as a 'fairer' approach?

Currently, vehicle users are paying the lion's share of about £24 billion per year in the way of fuel excise duty. When, as will inevitably happen eventually, that dwindles to zero, the government will clearly have to find a way of getting a comparable amount of revenue from some tax/duty payers. If you don't feel that vehicle users would be the most appropriate people to get that from, who would you prefer to pay?

 

[JohnW2]

If only your electricity meter could distinguish between household use and car charging.

That, of course, is one way it could be done - although, as has been said, there are plenty of other technological approaches.

However, that would/could result in EV users continuing to pay a similar amount of tax/duty on their electric fuel as they currently pay for hydrocarbon fuels. Whilst, as I've said, that would seem to me to be the fairest approach, we've just seen that some people think differently - and would seemingly prefer the loss of fuel excise duty income from car users to be compensated by taxing some group other than car users

 

[JohnW2]

.... it seems a generator is now classed as a road vehicle, and you have to use DERV (stands for diesel engine road vehicle) in generators now.

I don't think my petrol genny would be too happy about that

 

[Risteard]

Well, your "here" must be very different from the rest of the UK.

In terms of my "here", fuel for a diesel van attracts a ~53p per litre fuel excite duty, plus 20% VAT on both the cost of the fuel and the duty. In contrast, those with EVs which they charge at home pay zero fuel excise duty and pay only 5% VAT on the electricity they use for charging.

As I implied in what I wrote before, annual government revenue income from fuel excise duty is in the same ballpark as the cost of running the police force or fire service for a year, or running the NHS for 6-7 weeks. As that income is gradually lost, they are obviously going to have to do something to restore that income - and, as I said, the fairest way would seem to be to continue to get it, one way or another, from vehicle users.

https://www.consumercouncil.org.uk/consumers/help-consumers/electricity-oil-and-gas/switching-electricity-or-gas-supplier/economy-7

 

[Risteard]

That, of course, is one way it could be done - although, as has been said, there are plenty of other technological approaches.

However, that would/could result in EV users continuing to pay a similar amount of tax/duty on their electric fuel as they currently pay for hydrocarbon fuels. Whilst, as I've said, that would seem to me to be the fairest approach, we've just seen that some people think differently - and would seemingly prefer the loss of fuel excise duty income from car users to be compensated by taxing some group other than car users

I have a solution. Tax the politicians instead until they can't afford to eat, and then tax them some more.

 

[JohnW2]

https://www.consumercouncil.org.uk/consumers/help-consumers/electricity-oil-and-gas/switching-electricity-or-gas-supplier/economy-7

I haven't got time to plough through all that to find something relevant, but if you're saying that, in NI, ones pay as much in taxes/duties on the electricity used to charge it than one would pay in taxes/duties to run a diesel-fuelled vehicle then (if you have an EV) you might perhaps want to consider moving to a different part of the UK!

 

[Risteard]

I haven't got time to plough through all that to find something relevant, but if you're saying that, in NI, ones pay as much in taxes/duties on the electricity used to charge it than one would pay in taxes/duties to run a diesel-fuelled vehicle then (if you have an EV) you might perhaps want to consider moving to a different part of the UK!

I didn't say it was the same cost as Diesel (although the road tax unjustifiably is). My point was that the cheapest nighttime rate here is over double of that in Britain. Basic reading comprehension would have ascertained that.

 

[ericmark]

https://www.consumercouncil.org.uk/consumers/help-consumers/electricity-oil-and-gas/switching-electricity-or-gas-supplier/economy-7

Oh dear, it is rather expensive, although to be fair, economy 7 in mainland UK is not that cheap, it is the other tariffs which are cheap, but that is in the main limited to 5 hours not 7, and some down to 3 hours.

The available to all tariffs seem to have cheapest at 8.5p/kWh off-peak, the lower tariffs require one to give the supplier control of your EV, or battery, the word intelligent is used, so intelligent go, or intelligent flux have better rates to go or flux for example.

There are it seems comparison websites, but they don't tell you who will actually do what they promise, I tried for more than a year to get British Gas to pay me for export, finally moved to Octopus, I was phoned by British Gas to ask why I left, I told them it was because they had not paid me for export, they transferred me to another department, who wanted me to return to British Gas before they would even talk to me about export payment, I think you can work out what my answer was.

It seems talking to the solar panel installer, Scottish Power were the same, finding reasons not to pay for export, but not telling one what those reasons are.

I know the voltage in Ulster is not the same as rest of UK, and this has in the past caused problems getting equipment, we it seems use 11kV where Ulster uses 10 kV so the step down transformers are different. As to what else is different I don't know, do you have peat powered cars? The trams I saw in Hollywood seemed the same as used in Hong Kong, except no rotating gate at the back. Not sure even if open I would want to cross the bridge near the giant causeway, I only got an afternoon off when working at Harland and Wolff, but I did try to see some of the country, and can see its charm.

Here in Wales I can't get a list like you show, before I can get a price, need to enter post code, so I have no idea what the rest of the country pay.

 

[Why Not Indeed]

Maybe not, but what would you propose as a 'fairer' approach?

I didn't say that it was either fair or not fair, I am just highlighting that trying to come up with a way to replicate the old ways in a new system doesn't necessarily make any sense.
Old system = physical objects with a limited number of uses being moved around, to some points of delivery. Straightforward to tax. Some corner cases highlighted by EricMark.
New system = a service with many different uses being delivered, to several orders of magnitude more points of delivery. Difficult to apply different taxes to the different ways it's used.

 

[plugwash]

I note there have been some changes, it seems a generator is now classed as a road vehicle, and you have to use DERV (stands for diesel engine road vehicle) in generators now.

AIUI it's not that a generator is now classed as a road vehicle, it's that rather than being allowed for any "off-road" use, only certain users are now allowed to use red diesel.

Generator hire firms often don't want people using red diesel in their generators because it can cause issues if a generator is first rented for a purpose where red diesel use is allowed, and then later rented for a purpose where it is not.

So not sure if the narrow boat thing has changed,

My understanding is that private pleasure craft (including narrowboats) in the mainland UK still use red diesel, with the owner still declaring what proportion is for propulsion (taxed at the full rate) and what is for domestic (taxed at the reduced rate). I also get the impression that in practice narrowboat owners just declare an "accepted" ratio and don't actually measure it.

but there is nothing to stop those with chargers at home from being charged more for their electric.

If you tax the use of installed home chargers people will simply switch to using granny leads instead. Which is the opposite of what the government wants (the government really wants smart chargers so that the extra grid load presented by EVs can be directed to times when load is light).

One option would be to apply a tax based on data from the car itself, though that may have it's own problems.

 

[Risteard]

Oh dear, it is rather expensive, although to be fair, economy 7 in mainland UK is not that cheap, it is the other tariffs which are cheap, but that is in the main limited to 5 hours not 7, and some down to 3 hours.

The available to all tariffs seem to have cheapest at 8.5p/kWh off-peak, the lower tariffs require one to give the supplier control of your EV, or battery, the word intelligent is used, so intelligent go, or intelligent flux have better rates to go or flux for example.

There are it seems comparison websites, but they don't tell you who will actually do what they promise, I tried for more than a year to get British Gas to pay me for export, finally moved to Octopus, I was phoned by British Gas to ask why I left, I told them it was because they had not paid me for export, they transferred me to another department, who wanted me to return to British Gas before they would even talk to me about export payment, I think you can work out what my answer was.

It seems talking to the solar panel installer, Scottish Power were the same, finding reasons not to pay for export, but not telling one what those reasons are.

I know the voltage in Ulster is not the same as rest of UK, and this has in the past caused problems getting equipment, we it seems use 11kV where Ulster uses 10 kV so the step down transformers are different. As to what else is different I don't know, do you have peat powered cars? The trams I saw in Hollywood seemed the same as used in Hong Kong, except no rotating gate at the back. Not sure even if open I would want to cross the bridge near the giant causeway, I only got an afternoon off when working at Harland and Wolff, but I did try to see some of the country, and can see its charm.

Here in Wales I can't get a list like you show, before I can get a price, need to enter post code, so I have no idea what the rest of the country pay.

Unfortunately the intelligent tariffs such as Octopus Intelligent Go don't exist here. The only off-peak tariffs are Economy 7. (1a.m. to 8a.m. GST (i.e. 2a.m. to 9a.m. during Daylight Savings.) Even those advertised as "EV" tariffs are simply Economy 7 here.

 

[JohnW2]

I didn't say it was the same cost as Diesel ...

I'm confused, so can you perhaps help me understand what you were 'saying' when you wrote ....

Hardly a honeymoon when I'm being taxed the same as a Diesel van.

 

[Risteard]

I'm confused, so can you perhaps help me understand what you were 'saying' when you wrote ....

For the fifth time, ROAD TAX. And yes, I know that they call it Vehicle Excise Duty.

 

[JohnW2]

I didn't say that it was either fair or not fair, I am just highlighting that trying to come up with a way to replicate the old ways in a new system doesn't necessarily make any sense.
Old system = physical objects with a limited number of uses being moved around, to some points of delivery. Straightforward to tax. Some corner cases highlighted by EricMark.
New system = a service with many different uses being delivered, to several orders of magnitude more points of delivery. Difficult to apply different taxes to the different ways it's used.

If a vehicle is charged at any non-domestic charge point, then it is clearly obvious that the electricity is being used to charge an EV, so an appropriate 'electricity excise duty' (and VAT) could be added to what the user is charged, just as fuel excise duty is added to what the user is charged when they buy petrol or diesel.

As for domestic charging, as has been said, identifying electricity being used to charge EVs would be technologically trivial - so, again, appropriate duty/taxes could be added fo what it is charged for that usage of the electricity.

However, I wasn't talking about the mechanics of collecting the money but, rather, from whom it should be collected from - and, as I said, it seems both 'obvious' and 'fair' that the same people who traditionally were paying fuel excise duty for the fuel to run their vehicle should be the ones who paid a corresponding duty/tax when they changed to a car which used a different type of 'fuel' (i.e. electricity)