Barhroom light and switch

[shaun1982]

Hi just to say this all worked great lights and fan all in and working. Thank you for the help

 

[SUNRAY]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[ebee]

I have always attempted to make the brown (or red) wire the permanent live.

Double ditto on that premise dear boy, I think that me and thee might be unusual in that respect though, many electricians have preferred the Red or Brown to be the COM connection on two way switching, maybe back to the old days of wiring in singles (or single and Earth) perhaps.
But yes I have always preferred the Perm L colour code to be L non sleeved original and the sleeving, where required, to be on the others.
Sort of "Only original L is the Perm L" idea.

I think it`s more logical. Plus with a straightforward Feed and Return for one way switching on T & E cable then if not twin Red (Brown) used then the Red (Brown) is usually Perm L and the Black (Blue) sleeved appropriately is usually SW L. Makes perfect sense to me!

 

[SUNRAY]

Double ditto on that premise dear boy, I think that me and thee might be unusual in that respect though, many electricians have preferred the Red or Brown to be the COM connection on two way switching, maybe back to the old days of wiring in singles (or single and Earth) perhaps.
But yes I have always preferred the Perm L colour code to be L non sleeved original and the sleeving, where required, to be on the others.
Sort of "Only original L is the Perm L" idea.

I think it`s more logical. Plus with a straightforward Feed and Return for one way switching on T & E cable then if not twin Red (Brown) used then the Red (Brown) is usually Perm L and the Black (Blue) sleeved appropriately is usually SW L. Makes perfect sense to me!

Before harmonisation I never fitted red sleeves to yellow or blue SLs or strappers to distinguish them, in fact it seemed to be a normal thing around here. So seeing a red in a com it was assumed to be the perm or SL of a conventional system and the first time I came across blue perm at the distant end of a faulty 2 way conversion system caused some head scratching.

 

[ebee]

Before harmonisation I never fitted red sleeves to yellow or blue SLs or strappers to distinguish them, in fact it seemed to be a normal thing around here. So seeing a red in a com it was assumed to be the perm or SL of a conventional system and the first time I came across blue perm at the distant end of a faulty 2 way conversion system caused some head scratching.

Awhh you nawty boy, I thought I had found a kindred spirit here my friend.
Yes I had hanks of red sleeving for those yellows and blues, all my switches were Reds, the true Red was L and the others (Yellow and Blue but sleeved Red were the SW ls. So once we changed to those Nasty Brown Black Grey the Brown sleeves were easy.
It just made a bit of sense.
I was never easy with Red being L yet Blue being N even when Blue was N for flexes then by default yellow became E because the E was green/yellow for years after green was E.
Funny how your quirks and foibles are biased towards the gen consensus of practices at the time of your indoctrination of the ways of the word at the time you became aware of how the world might work..
Although mine make sense to me and might do to a lot of others there are some who have other inclinations to bias that have validity too.
what do the Red White Blue generation think?

I really miss the Green for E but even I appreciate the G/Y as a better Earth option even back in those days - partly down to my age and the era of my experiences.

I vividly remember the "Brown and Blue is ONLY for flexes and Red and Black is still for fixed wiring AND THAT WILL NEVER CHANGE!!!"
LOL

 

[morqthana]

what do the Red White Blue generation think?

That St. George was white British?

 

[SUNRAY]

Awhh you nawty boy, I thought I had found a kindred spirit here my friend.
Yes I had hanks of red sleeving for those yellows and blues, all my switches were Reds, the true Red was L and the others (Yellow and Blue but sleeved Red were the SW ls.

I was actually instructed on a course (terminating SWA) around 1974 that phase colours dont require marking when used as L, only if being used as N or E

So once we changed to those Nasty Brown Black Grey the Brown sleeves were easy.

Initially I, like so many, used harmonised black as N and gradually found others using grey which I didn't understand... until re using an existing 3ph cable for single phase and automatically wired as:

with Red being L yet Blue being N even when Blue was N for flexes then by default yellow became E because the E was green/yellow for years after green was E.

But it had been extended with harmonised and suddenly grey = N made a lot of sense

Funny how your quirks and foibles are biased towards the gen consensus of practices at the time of your indoctrination of the ways of the word at the time you became aware of how the world might work..
Although mine make sense to me and might do to a lot of others there are some who have other inclinations to bias that have validity too.
what do the Red White Blue generation think?

Don't forget the red, white or yellow, green, neutral blue and bare earth or red, white, blue, black, black generations and of course the DNO were a mind of their own which I've seen a number of times

I really miss the Green for E but even I appreciate the G/Y as a better Earth option even back in those days - partly down to my age and the era of my experiences.

I vividly remember the "Brown and Blue is ONLY for flexes and Red and Black is still for fixed wiring AND THAT WILL NEVER CHANGE!!!"
LOL

However it changed a number of times over the years before that combination so not surprisingly it did change

 

[ebee]

As a yong lad and during my early work years Green was E before it changed to the "New" G/Y Combination, even though in T & E etc it was often left bare and nobody seemed to mind much, it was quite common.

brown and blue for single phase flex was the "new kid on the block" later and everybody said, "only for flexes, the fixed wiring would "Never Change!" LOL.
4 core flexes had a black core and 5 core flexes had two black cores (Oh Heck!).

In fact when I started to mention at the wholesalers that our fixed wiring was going to change to Brown and Blue they all thought I was off my rocker. I had read it on the Voltimum Website.

When it finally was agreed that Brown/Black/Grey were to become the three L colours it was supposedly researched with the conclusion that it would only kill about 12 or 14 Electricians, so low risk and acceptable.
Have have never liked the three "Killer colours" as I have called them and I greatly prefer the Red/Yellow/Blue idea with Black for N. G or G/Y for E I dont mind either way but I suppose that looking back G/Y does seem more sensible than G nowadays.
RYB sleeved Red where appropriate does look prettier than Br/Bk/Gry behind ganged switches in my humble opinion too.
I did hear a few years back that many European Electrician types finally admitted that R/Y/B was a better idea than what we have now but at the time it was decided did not want to favour the UK advantage it could have brought, not sure if that is officially actually true though.

When I attempt to look at it objectively then my thoughts are R/Y/B being 3 of the 6 primary colours often used in everyday life and each one stands out from each other, even to many colour blind folks (I have never met anyone who has monochromic vision though but I have met quite a few colour blind folks), Black for N I easily go along with but I dont rule out others instead, personally, if required.
Anyway, thats just my take on things after all, others are free to disagree.

I do realise that the old white could often become a bit yellowy, especially in industry and again that some variants of RYB can become more indistinguishable in low light conditions as well.

 

[SUNRAY]

As a yong lad and during my early work years Green was E before it changed to the "New" G/Y Combination, even though in T & E etc it was often left bare and nobody seemed to mind much, it was quite common.

brown and blue for single phase flex was the "new kid on the block" later and everybody said, "only for flexes, the fixed wiring would "Never Change!" LOL.
4 core flexes had a black core and 5 core flexes had two black cores (Oh Heck!).

The original 'New colours' for a 5 core flex was widely publicised as 3 browns on posters in all the wholesalers, education establishments etc. I clearly recall the poster on the wall of our junior metalworkshop at school (so I would have been no older than 13-4 or 1968-9) and us discussing how dangerous it looked but the metalwork teacher trying to convince us otherwise. All the magazines involving electrical content of the era ran articles such as practical householder and even in my mothers womens magazines such as womans own and her asking me about it.
The 2 black version was several years later as far as I'm aware.
In the meantime there have been so many variations since 1969, for example this 5C 0.75mm² was purchased not long before covid:

One of my favourites is Bn,Bl,Bk,R,Gn/Y as it's not uncommon for me to have 2 dimmed stage lights in one cable.
However let's not go too far down this route again,

In fact when I started to mention at the wholesalers that our fixed wiring was going to change to Brown and Blue they all thought I was off my rocker. I had read it on the Voltimum Website.

When it finally was agreed that Brown/Black/Grey were to become the three L colours it was supposedly researched with the conclusion that it would only kill about 12 or 14 Electricians, so low risk and acceptable.

Hmm post #26 https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/electric-shock.644667/page-2#post-5974927

Have have never liked the three "Killer colours" as I have called them

No I don't like them, one of my biggest gripes is they are often very similar colour, especially low smoke versions or talc filled cable.

and I greatly prefer the Red/Yellow/Blue idea with Black for N.

What else could be more obvious than the three pigment primary colours for the wires that hurt and lack of colour for the one that doesnt

G or G/Y for E I dont mind either way but I suppose that looking back G/Y does seem more sensible than G nowadays.

✔

RYB sleeved Red where appropriate does look prettier than Br/Bk/Gry behind ganged switches in my humble opinion too.

✔

I did hear a few years back that many European Electrician types finally admitted that R/Y/B was a better idea than what we have now but at the time it was decided did not want to favour the UK advantage it could have brought, not sure if that is officially actually true though.

I think the vast majority of electricians will have wanted to retain their countries standards as the best combination

When I attempt to look at it objectively then my thoughts are R/Y/B being 3 of the 6 primary colours often used in everyday life and each one stands out from each other, even to many colour blind folks (I have never met anyone who has monochromic vision though but I have met quite a few colour blind folks), Black for N I easily go along with but I dont rule out others instead, personally, if required.

6 primary colours? I'm only aware of R,Y,B, for pigment and R, green, B for light. Unless Cyan and Magenta are now specified.

Anyway, thats just my take on things after all, others are free to disagree.

✔

I do realise that the old white could often become a bit yellowy, especially in industry and again that some variants of RYB can become more indistinguishable in low light conditions as well.

In low light and especially in LED torchlight the Bn,Bk,Gy, are far worse than R,Y,B. More than once I've found 400A powerlocks plugged up out of sequence, often done under low light condittions and a LED headlight such as under a temporary stage.

I don't think our age related thoughts are very different

 

[ebee]

6 primary colours? I'm only aware of R,Y,B, for pigment and R, green, B for light. Unless Cyan and Magenta are now specified

No there are 6 (main ones, others are possible though apparently).
Two groups 1/ Emitted light from the stars, a torch, a TV set and they are additive - RGB (Red, Green, Blue).
2/ Reflected light (cos they absorb the others) such as in dyes, inks, paint etc they are subtractive (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow) .
So using two from one main group and one from the other group does not seem too bad - cos they do stand out and distinguish quite a bit.
Artists do a 2 & 1 juggle too and nobody minds really.
Conversely by mixing two primaries from group 1/ you get result of a primary from group 2/ and vice versa.
Good innit?

And is merely a highly simplified version of events

 

[SUNRAY]

No there are 6 (main ones, others are possible though apparently).
Two groups 1/ Emitted light from the stars, a torch, a TV set and they are additive - RGB (Red, Green, Blue).
2/ Reflected light (cos they absorb the others) such as in dyes, inks, paint etc they are subtractive (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow) .
So using two from one main group and one from the other group does not seem too bad - cos they do stand out and distinguish quite a bit.
Artists do a 2 & 1 juggle too and nobody minds really.
Conversely by mixing two primaries from group 1/ you get result of a primary from group 2/ and vice versa.
Good innit?

And is merely a highly simplified version of events

Right so Magenta and Cyan (which are attainable from R,Y,B) are now classed as primary colours?

 

[morqthana]

Primary colors are colorants or colored lights that can be mixed in varying amounts to produce a gamut of colors.
.
.
The most common color mixing models are the additive primary colors (red, green, blue) and the subtractive primary colors (cyan, magenta, yellow). Red, yellow and blue are also commonly taught as primary colors (usually in the context of subtractive color mixing as opposed to additive color mixing), despite some criticism due to its lack of scientific basis.

Plenty more in that Wikipedia article. More, in fact, than anybody here probably wants.

I do know though that printed RAL colour charts (and I'm guessing Pantone also) are ferociously expensive.

 

[morqthana]

One of my favourites is Bn,Bl,Bk,R,Gn/Y

Is that a typo?

I bought some 5-core cable recently, it was Bn,Bl,Bk,Grey,Gn/Y, which makes sense.

But Bn,Bl,Bk,Red,Gn/Y?

 

[morqthana]

And BTW everybody - if ever anybody asks you "what colour is earth?" find out the context, don't just say "it's brown".

 

[JohnW2]

...... and of course the DNO were a mind of their own which I've seen a number of timesView attachment 391195

That photo looks very familiar