ULEZ

[carmanmemoranda]

I had no problem with the original ULEZ as inner London is quite polluted but it really wasn’t needed in the outer 'Greater London' areas. It was and still is a money raising exercise. A ban backed up by a hefty fine on these so-called 'dirty' cars would have been better but according to Khan, motorists can carry on poisoning people, just as long as they pay him for the privilege!

Are you saying the charge has had no effect then ?

It's how things work. It's like a carrot and stick. The charge being the stick and the scrappage scheme was the carrot.

We all know it's not perfect, but overall less pollution is better.

 

[Mottie]

We all know it's not perfect, but overall less pollution is better.

Then ban and fine, not charge to be allowed to pollute. Can people smoke in a public place if they pay for the privilege? Not wear a seat belt if they pay up? Khan certainly missed a trick there!

 

[carmanmemoranda]

Then ban and fine, not charge to be allowed to pollute. Can people smoke in a public place if they pay for the privilege?

Very different analogy

Id agree with a ban, but in a few years, when people have had time to adjust and work out their best options

 

[Avocet]

I had no problem with the original ULEZ as inner London is quite polluted but it really wasn’t needed in the outer 'Greater London' areas. It was and still is a money raising exercise. A ban backed up by a hefty fine on these so-called 'dirty' cars would have been better but according to Khan, motorists can carry on poisoning people, just as long as they pay him for the privilege!

I agree that a ban would have been better - (including classics), but we have to be pragmatic here. I mean, look at the moaning coming from Johnny. An outright ban would have simply alienated people even further. Personally, right now that about 96-97% of vehicles in the ULEZ are compliant, I think it's time to raise the bar.

Currently, it's at Euro 4 for petrol and Euro 6 for diesel. The problem is, there's more than one sort of "Euro 6" and the really clean ones didn't come in until Euro 6d around the end of 2020. Any Euro 6 that was before the VW scandal, is likely to be emitting FAR more NOx than its official figures would imply. Added to that, the MOT emissions test really isn't fit for purpose and many (perhaps most) of the older Euro 6 cars will have had EGRs blanked. Plenty will have been "remapped". I'm not suggesting that we change the requirements to Euro 6d yet, I accept that would be too big a step, but I do think we should look at only allowing diesels that met the Euro 6b or c levels, and which would have been tested to the WLTP drive cycle, rather than the old NEDC. Those will be coming up to 10 years old soon. For petrols, I think we could consider moving to any level of Euro 6.

 

[Mottie]

A fairer way would (for outer London) have been to say any cars registered in those ULEZ zones from a certain date will be banned and fined if they entered the zone but currently registered vehicles in the zone could be allowed to naturally expire or lose the right to enter the zone if they changed owners. Let them naturally expire. Nobody could have really complained about that except money grabbing Khan. Mark my words, when there is not enough revenue coming in from ULEZ charging, those cameras will be used for charge per mile for everyone.

 

[Avocet]

A fairer way would (for outer London) have been to say any cars registered in those ULEZ zones from a certain date will be banned and fined if they entered the zone but currently registered vehicles in the zone could be allowed to naturally expire or lose the right to enter the zone if they changed owners. Let them naturally expire.

Yeah, I wouldn't have a huge problem with that. It's all about pragmatism and as long as we keep heading in the right direction on air quality, the details of how we get there aren't going to be insurmountable.

Nobody could have really complained about that except money grabbing Khan. Mark my words, when there is not enough revenue coming in from ULEZ charging, those cameras will be used for charge per mile for everyone.

Maybe. Personally, I'm not sure it's a good way forward. The great thing about fuel duty, is that it not only covers the number of miles you d, but the efficiency at which you do them - so you'd end up paying the same for (say) 150 miles in a thirsty car as you would for (say) 200 miles in a frugal car. Added to that, it's an extremely efficient tax to collect at the point of fuel sale, with almost zero additional administrative costs involved in collecting it. ANPR won't be like that. It will offer none of those advantages and I'm not sure it will be good enough to give an accurate figure for mileage within the ULEZ, because it's really only designed to monitor when you're entering or leaving it.

Where it DOES score well, is that unlike fuel duty, it knows when and where you're doing the miles, so it could incorporate an element of "surge pricing" for congestion, rather than emissions monitoring purposes.

 

[johnny2007]

There were (pretty generous, in my view) scrappage incentives. Did you qualify for those? (And if not, why not)?

Generous?!?!
£2000 for cars worth £10-15k+???
My A6 was worth around £7k.
As soon as ULEZ hit the value dropped to £4/4.5k.
I waited until post midget elections hoping that he would be kicked out.
Then I had several offers from people outside the ULEZ trying to get a bargain.
One cheeky sod even offered me £2k for a mint 3 litre limited edition beast.
Fortunately I have a drive, so I wasn't in a rush and eventually the right buyer came along.
Generous my arse!

Really? As well as paying your taxes, you also pay full whack for all your healthcare? Your street lighting? Your share of the armed forces? Your share of the education system...? your share of the roads?

I've always had private health insurance.
My taxes pay for all of what you listed. The leeches parasite of society get all of that for free.

If it cheers you up any, you could try being happy that millions of Londoners are no longer having to breathe the carp that comes out of your tailpipe...

You still believe in fairy tales???

A fairer way would (for outer London) have been to say any cars registered in those ULEZ zones from a certain date will be banned and fined if they entered the zone but currently registered vehicles in the zone could be allowed to naturally expire or lose the right to enter the zone if they changed owners. Let them naturally expire. Nobody could have really complained about that except money grabbing Khan. Mark my words, when there is not enough revenue coming in from ULEZ charging, those cameras will be used for charge per mile for everyone.

Fair is not a word the midget understands.
He wanted money and also punish anyone who's opposed to him, that being working people.
The parasites all have brand new cars, either on lease or provided by us, the taxpayers under the motability scheme.

 

[Avocet]

Generous?!?!
£2000 for cars worth £10-15k+???
My A6 was worth around £7k.

Pretty generous compared to what Mottie was proposing!

As soon as ULEZ hit the value dropped to £4/4.5k.

Did this come s a shock to you? Happily, I live about as far from London as it is possible to live, whilst still being in England, but even I heard of the many rounds of consultation before it was implemented!

I waited until post midget elections hoping that he would be kicked out.

And how did that work out for you?

...twice...?

Then I had several offers from people outside the ULEZ trying to get a bargain.
One cheeky sod even offered me £2k for a mint 3 litre limited edition beast.
Fortunately I have a drive, so I wasn't in a rush and eventually the right buyer came along.
Generous my arse!

Oh.. so you weren't forced to scrap it after all?

I've always had private health insurance.

I hope you don't live long enough to develop a chronic condition that it doesn't cover. Private healthcare insurance exists primarily for the benefit of private healthcare insurance companies. What were you saying about believing in fairy tales?

My taxes pay for all of what you listed. The leeches parasite of society get all of that for free.

...but we the taxpayers pay for our stuff.
And politicians take it away from us.

Oh, so you do get something in return for those taxes? Well fancy that...

You still believe in fairy tales???

Fair is not a word the midget understands.
He wanted money and also punish anyone who's opposed to him, that being working people.
The parasites all have brand new cars, either on lease or provided by us, the taxpayers under the motability scheme.

You'd think he's have been voted out by now, if the majority of Londoners felt the same way as you...

...if what you say is true...

 

[Deluks]

ULEZ expansion was essential they said, people are getting ill and dying, and it's all caused by older cars.

Then, after ULEZ kicks in, stories like this start to come out.

Gas hob can raise indoor air pollution higher than busy UK road, study finds

Research by Which? compared levels nitrogen dioxide and fine particulate matter in homes and street in London

www.theguardian.com

Brake pad dust can be more toxic than exhaust emissions, study says

Research shows move to electric vehicles may not be enough to enable pollution from cars to be eradicated

www.theguardian.com

ULEZ was just a moneymaking scheme, by a scheming untrustworthy mayor.

 

[johnny2007]

Did this come s a shock to you? Happily, I live about as far from London as it is possible to live, whilst still being in England, but even I heard of the many rounds of consultation before it was implemented!

So you must've heard about how the midget hid and shredded thousands of opposing comments during his rigged consultation.
Didn't come as a shock to me because I'm aware of corruption in politics.
You think you're safe living outside London.
One day very soon you will experience the same faith as working Londoners.
Unless you're a parasite, in which case you will enjoy a life of luxury at our expenses.
Very dignifying indeed!

And how did that work out for you?

...twice...?

Not too well.
But it worked out perfectly for the parasites.

Oh.. so you weren't forced to scrap it after all?

I was forced to sell it which I didn't want to.
And I was forced to keep it in my drive for almost a year.

I hope you don't live long enough to develop a chronic condition that it doesn't cover. Private healthcare insurance exists primarily for the benefit of private healthcare insurance companies. What were you saying about believing in fairy tales?

My private health insurance paid for lots of physio, scans, small procedures, etc.
I saved money to the NHS, unlike the parasites who use and abuse the NHS without paying a penny for it.
I can proudly say that I am in credit, so if I ever developed a chronic condition, nobody could ever say that I am a burden to the NHS.

Oh, so you do get something in return for those taxes? Well fancy that...

Rightly so.
I pay for those services.
I paid all my life, never taken one penny in benefits.
Unlike foreign parasites, I arrived in this country legally, worked all my life and integrated into our society, paying for everything.
I keep my customs for myself, in my home, I don't impose them on anyone.
And, I've always tried to not be a burden on anyone, including the NHS, hence my private health insurance.

You'd think he's have been voted out by now, if the majority of Londoners felt the same way as you...

...if what you say is true...

Scrap the postal vote and see what happens.
When you have 60/70 parasites all registered to vote in a studio flat and all from the midget's background, you have no hope.
The midget is, was and will always be opposed to getting able people to vote in person with an id.
You should wonder why.

 

[Deluks]

You'd think he's have been voted out by now, if the majority of Londoners felt the same way as you...

The majority of Londoners don't drive, and the majority of Londoners look like him.

The majority of Londoners use public transport to get to work

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/tube-workers-exposed-to-fine-dust-sickness-absence/

 

[Avocet]

The majority of Londoners don't drive, and the majority of Londoners look like him.

The majority of Londoners use public transport to get to work

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/tube-workers-exposed-to-fine-dust-sickness-absence/

Democracy eh? It's a bitch...

 

[Avocet]

ULEZ expansion was essential they said, people are getting ill and dying, and it's all caused by older cars.

Then, after ULEZ kicks in, stories like this start to come out.

Gas hob can raise indoor air pollution higher than busy UK road, study finds

Research by Which? compared levels nitrogen dioxide and fine particulate matter in homes and street in London

www.theguardian.com

Brake pad dust can be more toxic than exhaust emissions, study says

Research shows move to electric vehicles may not be enough to enable pollution from cars to be eradicated

www.theguardian.com

ULEZ was just a moneymaking scheme, by a scheming untrustworthy mayor.

You know the really funny thing in all this? It's precisely because of emissions improvements in road vehicles (which is kind-of the whole point of ULEZ schemes, to incentivise adoption of cleaner vehicles), that sources like gas hobs and brake dust have now become significant sources of air pollution!

Before all this "totally unnecessary" (in some people's minds!) emissions legislation, those sources (and woodstoves before you mention them too) were a drop in the ocean when it came to air quality!

You might not realise it, but you're making an excellent argument for replacing ICE cars with EVs (far less brake dust), and gas hobs with electric ones...

...which, I'm guessing, wasn't your intention?

 

[Deluks]

You might not realise it, but you're making an excellent argument for replacing ICE cars with EVs (far less brake dust), and gas hobs with electric ones...

No, that's not my intention.
My point is that the argument for ULEZ expansion was weighted against older vehicles and completely ignored these others factors, which people are still exposed to.

You walk around London or any other city and see the amount of people that are vaping, smoking, quite often you'll catch the smell of weed. Most people don't care about this stuff, they put all sorts of ****e into their bodies, they don't bother using their kitchen extractors, or care that their fried chicken is pumped full of chemicals.

Mayor Khan deflected and denied when asked about ULEZ expansion, until the point when he dropped the bombshell and gave less than a years notice. He snuck it in, which just makes him come across as a very slick con artist.

 

[Avocet]

So you must've heard about how the midget hid and shredded thousands of opposing comments during his rigged consultation.
Didn't come as a shock to me because I'm aware of corruption in politics.

How does it go? Ah! I remember! "You lost, get over it"...

You think you're safe living outside London.
One day very soon you will experience the same faith as working Londoners.
Unless you're a parasite, in which case you will enjoy a life of luxury at our expenses.
Very dignifying indeed!

Well, living in a remote rural area and driving an EV, I do admit to being "quietly confident" when it comes to new ULEZs, yes...

Not too well.
But it worked out perfectly for the parasites.

I was forced to sell it which I didn't want to.
And I was forced to keep it in my drive for almost a year.

You weren't ""forced" to do anything.

You could have chosen to keep your car and pay the ULEZ charge. You chose not to.
You could have chosen to take up the scrappage offer. You chose not to.
You could have stored your beloved car until it was 40 years old and exempt. You chose not to.
You've already admitted to having a drive. You could have bought a second, ULEZ exempt car and kept your beloved for occasional use. You chose not to.

In the end, you chose to sell your car "to the right buyer".

So don't come crying about being forced to do anything. You had choices, you just didn't like the options.

My private health insurance paid for lots of physio, scans, small procedures, etc.
I saved money to the NHS, unlike the parasites who use and abuse the NHS without paying a penny for it.
I can proudly say that I am in credit, so if I ever developed a chronic condition, nobody could ever say that I am a burden to the NHS.

You can say that, but whether anyone would believe you, is a different matter. The private healthcare sector poaches staff from the NHS, leaving the NHS to run on ruinously expensive locum services. Even if you never had anything on the NHS (which frankly, I very much doubt), you are a drain on its resources, just in a different way. You will, of course, be quick to point out that if the NHS was as "efficient" as the private healthcare industry, it would be able to afford to pay its staff more and retain them. Unfortunately, the private healthcare industry is pretty good at cherry-picking the lucrative cases and leaving the NHS with the old crocs (and its own cockups) to sort out. Those long-term degenerative diseases are ruinously expensive to treat. Ironically, the NHS spends about £6 billion a year treating people for the effects of the fumes that the car you so desperately wanted you to keep, belch out. And Heaven forbid that you are ever involved in a serious accident and blue-lighted to A&E, but I hope you have one of those bracelet that say "please don't take me to an NHS hospital, I don't want to be a "parasite", I'd rather die on the way to a private A&E department"...

Rightly so.
I pay for those services.
I paid all my life, never taken one penny in benefits.

You're really not unique in that. But the important thing is that you do acknowledge you get something in return for those taxes.

Unlike foreign parasites, I arrived in this country legally, worked all my life and integrated into our society, paying for everything.
I keep my customs for myself, in my home, I don't impose them on anyone.

I thought we were talking about the ULEZ, but by all means, feel free to turn this into a demented racist rant about "immigrants" if you prefer? Perhaps you feel they should be allowed to work, so they can start paying taxes just like you, and not be a drain on the state?

And, I've always tried to not be a burden on anyone, including the NHS, hence my private health insurance.

Scrap the postal vote and see what happens.
When you have 60/70 parasites all registered to vote in a studio flat and all from the midget's background, you have no hope.
The midget is, was and will always be opposed to getting able people to vote in person with an id.
You should wonder why.

Like I said. You lost. get over it. Oddly though, most of the opposition to ID cards seems to come from the Far Right? Where do you stand on it? Would you like to see the government's mandatory ID card scheme come in?