Flat heating/hotwater improvements....choices....

[dishman]

I have a small two bedroom flat that I let out. Circa 1970s low rise block of flats (above average quality for the time).
Current EPC rating D (I think) could be E. But some improvements have been made since then.

It comprises of a small bathroom, one small long box bedroom, and a main bedroom and one large living area and kitchen.

Current Set-up:

All electric E7:
Original fortic cylinder (terrible hot water pressure) with immersion heater.
3 large 2kw storage heaters. One in main living area and two others in the bedrooms.

Storage heaters are the basic manual type but were installed in 2007, so not ancient.

It was suggested that I make some improvements to the hot water pressure, so I was considering replacing the fortic to a unvented cylinder.
It was also suggested at a future point I consider upgrading to LOT20 HHR storage heaters to get a better EPC.

But, there is an available gas supply to the property that is just unconnected at the moment.

So I just wanted to bounce some thoughts:

Option 1 (current plan): Just replace the ageing fortic cylinder to direct unvented and get much better water pressure.
Stick with current manual storage heaters as while they may not get a better EPC value, the actual energy use is probably no better than LOT20.
Pro:This seems to be the best cheap upgrade to a set-up that is largely maintenance free.
Con: Clumsy system, not user-friendly, poor EPC rating
Cost £1200ish

Option 2: In addition to the tank, upgrade the storage heaters to LOT20 HHR type to get better EPC rating?
Cost £2000ish - Pro -Option to get better EPC rating and creature comforts for tenant
Con - Cost of upgrading one system for a similar system without much benefit other than a better EPC rating

Option 3: Full switch to gas combi boiler and central heating.
Pro: Ease of use, cheaper bills, lower EPC value. More attractive for people.
Con: Cost of install (£5000? ish), ugly pipework routing (concrete floors), annual servicing and maintenance, potential for gas to be penalised as a fuel source in the future vs more efficient electric setups?

 

[endecotp]

Ask your lettings agent how much difference they think GCH would make to the rent you can charge.

 

[dishman]

I'm less concerned about that really. I'm more just trying to get opinions or suggestions if there is anything I had not considered or am missing.

Gas is an attractive option but, I am wondering if there is likely to be a push towards more electric in the next 10 years so little point doing an overhaul.

 

[endecotp]

I am wondering if there is likely to be a push towards more electric in the next 10 years so little point doing an overhaul.

If you had the possibility of electric heat pump heating, this would be a concern. But not if you don’t.

Policy might be to progressively encourage gas users who can to get heat pumps. The transition can’t be too quick because we need to build more (nuclear / renewable) power stations to power all these new heat pumps. Making gas so expensive that even storage heaters are cheaper than gas wouldn’t happen during that process.

 

[ericmark]

There is no real answer. I want to cut down my own bills, and have looked at energy storage, and more economical heaters, etc.
How to store energy? As hot bricks, as hot water, or chemical (batteries), and how to convert from oil, solid fuel, gas, or electric, into useable heat.

The non government involvement answer is likely to run an oil engine to drive a heat pump, maybe using an electrical power train, oil engine drives a generator with in turn drive heat pump. But the government has got involved with rules, grants, etc. So not looking at simple common sense, but what will the government allow you to do, and what tax relief, grants, or tax will they give or impose, and how does that affect what works out best?

They have stopped one using 35 sec gas oil for generators, seems a generator is now a road vehicle so it is considered as a diesel-engined road vehicle (DERV) as to how or why, not a clue.

As to energy ratings, that is also crazy, it is a tick the box exercise, and not down to what it costs to live in the home.

The boiler, heat pump, etc. Will have a sweet point, where it runs most efficiently, and turning a boiler or engine on/off can often use more energy to modulating (turning down) the device, and being either too big or too small will reduce efficiency. There has been a lot of talk about air to air heat pumps in each room v air to water with one device serving all rooms. Also storing the heat or not, and it depends on who's report you read which is best.

The varying electric tariffs don't help. Off-peak can be for between 5 and 10 hours, in general the longer, the more it costs.

So you write down all options, don a blind fold and stick in a pin.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The boiler, heat pump, etc. Will have a sweet point, where it runs most efficiently, and turning a boiler or engine on/off can often use more energy to modulating (turning down) the device, and being either too big or too small will reduce efficiency. There has been a lot of talk about air to air heat pumps in each room v air to water with one device serving all rooms. Also storing the heat or not, and it depends on who's report you read which is best.

Were I starting from scratch, with absolutely no heating system, and a much smaller place to heat, maybe a flat, and knowing what I now know - I would be seriously looking at making use of a CDH. 8Kw of heated, blown air. with just two small holes through the wall, exhaust and combustion air. Quiet, cheap to run, and a choice of various fuels to run it on.

 

[endecotp]

I would be seriously looking at making use of a CDH.

Is that “Chinese Diesel Heater”?

 

[dishman]

I was trying to work out that too, but I assumed some kind of air to air heat pump/warm air?

I am coming back round to gas central heating, although there is the possibility that the flat could accommodate a heat pump.


When doing the numbers, while replacing the cylinder to get mains pressure hot is a nice idea....at £1500 that locks me into continuing with an all electric set-up for the medium term.

The next step would be replacing the perfectly fine storage heaters with HHR just to ensure the EPC stays legal. That would be maybe another £2000 for three of them.

In total that would be getting near the cost of a Gas DWH system without it's benefits.

More pondering......

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Is that “Chinese Diesel Heater”?

Sorry, yes!

I have an original German version built into my car, to pre-heat it, and a CDH providing heat in my garage/workshop. The CHD can be had as cheap as £70, just needing fuel. Cheap enough to have a spare, on standby, just in case.

 

[endecotp]

I wonder what its EPC rating would be?

 

[ericmark]

Sorry, yes!

I have an original German version built into my car, to pre-heat it, and a CDH providing heat in my garage/workshop. The CHD can be had as cheap as £70, just needing fuel. Cheap enough to have a spare, on standby, just in case.

My son had an Eberspacher in his narrow boat, and it seemed to work very well, other than being 12 or 24 volts, one has to ask why we have massive lumps in the house. Same with the Carver found in caravans. In both cases we now see Chinese versions.

I wonder what its EPC rating would be?

That is likely why we don't see them. Or at reach Part L. As I said.

But the government has got involved with rules, grants, etc.

So we are not looking at common sense, we are looking at options permitted by the government. I have seen this in one home, my brother-in-laws, and yes it worked, but when he moved, he was quoted a silly figure to fit it in his new home. It is only really an option when installed from new.

Already pages and pages about the Willis system, why did I not fit it, simple could not find anyone who knew how to fit it. I live in Wales not Ulster.

So the big question, with electric heating, will storage radiators work? Other than specials, like the council houses of Lixum where the storage was a central room, and heat taken into the house with fans, the problem is it all depends on the life style of the occupant.

With a young family with pre-school age children, or a retired couple, the storage radiator may work, but when out at work all day, specially if not well insulated, the a simple panel heater may work better, as not heating the home when not occupied.

Select any provider and they have a selection of tariffs. With fancy names, and you need to enter post codes to compare, it needs the average cost of off-peak and peak, comparing with standard rate.

I had to do the same, one tariff split into three rates, the other two rates, and the single rate, and I had to consider would I likely use electric 4 - 7 pm I considered I did not want to sit there watching the state of charge of my battery, but you have no idea what the tenant will require.