Plastic KETER sheds

How do you think they cool the gasses then? Particularly Hydrogen to 30°K ...
I'm not sure that I understand your question. As I've just written, it is impossible to liquify hydrogen at a temp above its 'critical temp' (about 33 K), no matter how high the pressure - but it would (just) be possible to liquify it at 30 K with a very high pressure. At the critical temperature (about 33 K) it would require a pressure of about 1,198 psi (the 'critical pressure', about 82.7 bar) to liquify hydrogen.

I have no idea, but would suspect/presume that hydrogen is usually stored at temps well above 33 K, hence inevitably as a compressed gas, with no liquid?

[ as a pedantic point, units of absolute pressure temperature are, strictly speaking, Kelvin ('K'), not 'degrees Kelvin' ('°K') !! ]
Edit: work of disobedient typing fingers corrected!
 
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.... I recall it as using a membrane filter to separate the hydrogen and a compressor similar to a jet engine to compress it sufficiently to turn it to liquid.
As I've recently written, at its 'critical temperature' (about 33 K) it would require a pressure of about 1,198 psi (the 'critical pressure', about 82.7 bar) to liquify hydrogen - so not totally impossible. However, as said, it would be impossible to liquify it at temps above about 33 K, no matter how much pressure you coud come up with!
 
... but I recall it as using a membrane filter to separate the hydrogen and a compressor similar to a jet engine to compress it sufficiently to turn it to liquid.

As I've recently written, at its 'critical temperature' (about 33 K) it would require a pressure of about 1,198 psi (the 'critical pressure', about 82.7 bar) to liquify hydrogen - so not totally impossible. However, as said, it would be impossible to liquify it at temps above about 33 K, no matter how much pressure you coud come up with!
and you conveniently take the post out of context
 
but would suspect/presume that hydrogen is usually stored at temps well above 33 K, hence inevitably as a compressed gas, with no liquid?
That's right, for any "permanent gas" ie one that cannot be liquefied by pressure alone at room temperature, there are 2 options - store it as a compressed gas at high pressure, or cool it, compress it (at moderate pressure), and keep it as liquid in a Dewar vessel (aka vacuum flask). Which to choose depends on the economics of the situation.
 
I suspect that the same refrigerant would not be 'appropriate' (well, at least not 'ideal') for a freezer and for aircon, given that the target temps in the 'evaporator' are so different in those two scenarios.
Propane (aka R290) is quite common in commercial fridges/freezers and now seems to also be seeing use in air conditioning, while Isobutane (aka R600A) is the norm in domestic refridgeration.

CO2 has also been used for air conditioning and commercial refridgeration, it has the distinct advantage of being non-flamable while not being anywhere near as bad for the environment as flourocarbons but it's critical point is a little on the low side. I've seen a claim (which I can't verify) this is the reason for out of service freezers in UK supermarkets recently.

In a freezer, the refrigerant must be liquid at the P and T in the condenser (heat dump grid), and gas at the P and T in the freezer compartment.
Phase change is not strictly necessary for a refrigeration cycle (most aircraft use an air-based cycle to manage cabin temperatures!) but it's very helpful.
 
Propane (aka R290) is quite common in commercial fridges/freezers and now seems to also be seeing use in air conditioning, while Isobutane (aka R600A) is the norm in domestic refridgeration.
Reading around, I'm not convinced that 'a norm' really exists, but it certainly seems that both of those scenarios you describe are quite common. I suspect that one of the reasons why there is not more of a 'norm' is that refrigeration kit tends to last for a good few years, but fashions and practices (and rules/regs) change pretty frequently - so that at any point in time what is in-service tends to reflect the spectrum of changing thinking over preceding years.
CO2 has also been used for air conditioning and commercial refridgeration, it has the distinct advantage of being non-flamable while not being anywhere near as bad for the environment as flourocarbons but it's critical point is a little on the low side. I've seen a claim (which I can't verify) this is the reason for out of service freezers in UK supermarkets recently.
That all sounds reasonable.
Phase change is not strictly necessary for a refrigeration cycle (most aircraft use an air-based cycle to manage cabin temperatures!) but it's very helpful.
Now you're stretching my brain to beyond anywhere I think it's ever been before :-)

As I said in my initial description/explanation of the refrigeration cycle I think I've probably always assumed that the cycle was (at least in practice) always based on the release and absorption of latent heat during phase changes. However, if I understand you correctly, you're now saying that the cycle can work simply on the basis of the temp changes which occur when a gas is compressed or allowed to expand, but is always in the gas phase (I presume that it cannot work if the substance is always in the liquid phase) - and I have to say that, now you've made me think about it, I see no reason why that couldn't be the case, at least qualitatively. However, I somewhat suspect that there could well be issues in relation to 'efficiency' (in whatever sense), since I think that (quite apart from what I go on to say in the next paragraph) latent heat can probably be pretty large in comparison with the relatively modest changes in temp with occur with compression/expansion of a gas?

You may also have helped me a bit to understand a conversation I had a few weeks back. It was with an old friend who is a professor of Theoretical Physics and I had asked him if there is a theoretical upper limit to the efficiency achievable by a heat pump. His answer was along the lines of "there will obviously be a limit if there are no phase changes, since (a calculable amount of) work then has to be done to raise the temp of the gas by compression" But that "if the usual phase changes did occur, then that would be a much more interesting question that he would have to go away and think about"! I suppose I thought that his first scenario was a hypothetical one which never arose in practice, but maybe I was wrong about that!
 
Phase change is not strictly necessary for a refrigeration cycle (most aircraft use an air-based cycle to manage cabin temperatures!) but it's very helpful.
I had occurred to me that in principle the cycle could work with a permanent gas, but I assumed there must be big advantages in using a phase-change refrigerant. I wasn't aware that air was actually used in a practical system so thanks for that.
 
I had occurred to me that in principle the cycle could work with a permanent gas ...
I think that probably puts your brain well ahead of mine since, as I wrote, I don't think it had ever previously occurred to me!
.... but I assumed there must be big advantages in using a phase-change refrigerant.
Could it perhaps be at least partially because of what I suggested (and which would be consistent with what my Physicist friend said), namely that 'releasing heat'by a ('downward') phase change is much more efficient than achieving that by compression of a gas without phase change? With the latter, work presumably has to be done continuously (by the compressor) in order to generate/'release' heat, whereas with the former (with a phase change) I'm not sure that, theoretically, any further work has to be done once pressure has been increased such that the gas has come to be at its boiling point, does it (i..e. latent heat will continue to be released 'on its own'?) ?
I wasn't aware that air was actually used in a practical system so thanks for that.
I obviously was not aware of that. Mind you, aircraft cabins are a pretty special case. With fridges/freezers and with most 'terrestrial' aircon, the system can be optimised for heat transfer in one direction. However, an aircraft cabin can need a fair bit of cooling when on the ground in a hot country, but a lot of heating when at cruising altitude - so presumably has to be ('compromise') 'bi-directionally efficient' - and maybe '(always gaseous) air' is good for that compromise? I just don't know.

I was also wondering, given the aeronautical industry's concerns about weight (they even worry about weight of paint etc.) that air might be attractive because of its appreciably lower density than the hydrocarbons and fluorohydrocarbons etc. that one might otherwise consider - but it could well be that it's the weight of gas, rather than its volume, which is relevant to 'heat transfer', so that thought could be a red herring.
 
simple, read my post then compare with the part of it you didn't quote and your response to it then check the sequence of messages.
I'm afraid I'm still pretty confused. The (only) "parts of your post which I didn't quote" were...
Ah this is still going back to my school education (where it seems I may be wrong) ................ I must remember to check for further replies before posting.
... and I'm not sure how omission of that in what I quoted constitutes my "taking your post out of context". Are you perhaps merely complaining that I did not formally acknowledge (by quoting it) your admission that you might be wrong - or what?
 

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