New Boiler Technology

[Doctor Drivel]

a lot of unsubstantiated statements, some of which are very unconvincing, including: "This technology generates plasma, a very hot gas, and heat from hydrogen, obtained from ordinary water, requiring no fuel in the process."

"All my own research and writing."

I am not claiming anything... I am not doing the research

I spy fast backpedalling.

Only Wurzle can think like that!!!! Shuks!

 

[Nixt]

a lot of unsubstantiated statements, some of which are very unconvincing, including: "This technology generates plasma, a very hot gas, and heat from hydrogen, obtained from ordinary water, requiring no fuel in the process."

"All my own research and writing."

I am not claiming anything... I am not doing the research

I spy fast backpedalling.

Are you sure you didn't copy it DD (Water Systems)?

 

[doitall]

They are also developing an engine that runs on air

That is fact.

 

[doitall]

...and why manufacturers will never up the quality. If manufacturers can build this super reliable boiler and give it a sensible warranty for the expensive components...
...

There are no expensive parts in a modern boiler, just over priced.

A Grundfos pump £60 ish, virtually the same pump for an boiler £120 ish, PCBs cost around £10 to produce, and we all know what they charge for them, then we have cheap plastic bit at 10 a penny all designed to increase the spares market where the manufacturers are racking it in.

I doubt the material cost of an boiler is any more than a hundred quid.

 

[anjme]

I left BG and now run my own small fireplace showroom, wish I had opened up a boiler spares shop instead.
Some ex BG lads I know who took that direction are minted now !

I have at loads of "old" balanced flue cast iron boilers I service every year. One multifunction valve, tc lead & thermostat, that is the sum of the working parts on the boiler £250.00 max if I had to supply ALL these working parts.
Some of these boilers are over twenty years old.
They may be less efficient by approx. 10% -15% but any rgi can service them, no need for co/co2 machines, training courses or a van full of pcbs and fans etc.
Long term I still think the old "inefficient" b/f boilers are more cost effective over the lifetime of the boiler.

There must be factories in China/Japan working 24/7 to keep these new "efficient" boilers running with the constant need for components.
I would imagine the boiler manufacturers have never had it so good, just take time to read the posts, they make a cheap, rubbish boiler, even the best technicians complain over cheap shoddy parts, the poor design and too soon the customer gives in and junks the boiler for a shiny new one.

I am waiting for someone from the Water board to take note and complain at the milions of gallons of chemicals and sludge we are forced to pump out of these systems every day now into the public drains and sewers simply because the new boilers, valves & heat exchangers cannot cope with heavy deposits in the pipes that the older cast iron boilers never had a problem with.

 

[Doctor Drivel]

Are you sure you didn't copy it DD (Water Systems)?

Yep. All my own work. Good isn't it?

 

[Doctor Drivel]

They are also developing an engine that runs on air

That is fact.

A Stirling engine was referred to as an air engine.

The compressed air engine is by MDI in France and been around for 10 years in development: It had to beat off the corporate and oil giants.
http://cyber-media.com/aircar/

 

[Doctor Drivel]

I doubt the material cost of an boiler is any more than a hundred quid.

Material cost? Finished product you mean.

 

[Doctor Drivel]

I left BG and now run my own small fireplace showroom, wish I had opened up a boiler spares shop instead.
Some ex BG lads I know who took that direction are minted now !

I have at loads of "old" balanced flue cast iron boilers I service every year. One multifunction valve, tc lead & thermostat, that is the sum of the working parts on the boiler £250.00 max if I had to supply ALL these working parts.
Some of these boilers are over twenty years old.
They may be less efficient by approx. 10% -15%

Try 30 to 40%

but any rgi can service them, no need for co/co2 machines, training courses or a van full of pcbs and fans etc.
Long term I still think the old "inefficient" b/f boilers are more cost effective over the lifetime of the boiler.

That has been disproven. A quality modern boiler will last and last...and use 30 to 40% less expensive fuel.

I am waiting for someone from the Water board to take note and complain at the milions of gallons of chemicals and sludge we are forced to pump out of these systems every day now into the public drains and sewers simply because the new boilers, valves & heat exchangers cannot cope with heavy deposits in the pipes that the older cast iron boilers never had a problem with.

Sludge is sludge and it messes up any system.

 

[doitall]

I doubt the material cost of an boiler is any more than a hundred quid.

Material cost? Finished product you mean.

I didn't because I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[anjme]

That has been disproven. A quality modern boiler will last and last...and use 30 to 40% less expensive fuel.

I do not claim to be an expert, but I know that most modern boilers need a minimum 22/28mm supply (extra cost), we now fit boilers so large in their gas consumption they use up 32kw of energy to heat the water (extra cost) compared to a lowly 15 kw for a basic cast iron wall mounted boiler. I read the posts on websites like this and read the about the poor guys who try to keep the "modern boilers" working (extra cost). Can we really say (if there were an internet) there would be so many boiler break down posts on a website like this twenty years ago? Has any one ever costed an average service/repair cost of a "modern boiler" over its lifespan compared to an older b/f boiler? I remember when the first Netaheat 10/16 came out the service calls and repair costs went through the roof. In my opinion, since then. it has risen increasingly as to the more components fitted to the boiler the more it breaks down and the more expense the customer has to pay to keep it going.(relative to the simple b/f type of boiler)

Sludge is sludge and it messes up any system.

BUT it rarely causes any problem to an older cast iron boiler. The sludge problem has become a massive nightmare cost for everyone involved in the modern boiler technology, from the customer who is now forced to have it all cleaned out to the engineers who have to remove it without causing further damage to property, carpets radiators, etc, just read the posts on pin holed radiators caused by flushing . Not counting the cost to the environment caused by engineers who ruin boilers by not flushing out correctly. It was almost impossible to damage an "ineffcient" 73% boiler with a lazy engineer. Again search & read the posts of the competant engineers who post on sites like this they will confirm that too many engineers fail to flush out correctly and the cost is ruined boilers that need replacing too soon. Why was the magnetic filter never invented twenty years ago? because we did not need it! its only now with the modern boilers, they will not run and achieve the efficiencies with dirty water so we spend millions of man hours draining and flushing contaminated water plus cleaning chemicals into the drain system.

Try 30 to 40%

http://www.sedbuk.com/ That is not a fair or accurate comment. Read and search the Sedbuk site on new and old boilers the best 'A' boilers are 90% and the worst are 65% . Ask any one with gas experience to compare an average type Ideal LX RS250 WM boiler at 72% efficient to an A rated similar model. There is a 18% margin of efficiency yet the old boiler has no fans, pcb's, modulating valves or other costly components that will almost definately need replacing over the life time of the new boiler.
Can we really say the extra cost of buying, installing & maintaining the 'Steamer' is worth it?

I'm sorry ... I am still not convinced.

 

[Doctor Drivel]

That has been disproven. A quality modern boiler will last and last...and use 30 to 40% less expensive fuel.

I do not claim to be an expert, but I know that most modern boilers need a minimum 22/28mm supply (extra cost),

One pipe. Eh?

we now fit boilers so large in their gas consumption they use up 32kw of energy to heat the water (extra cost) compared to a lowly 15 kw for a basic cast iron wall mounted boiler.

From this point onwards I will not take you seriously. The higher the kW does not mean less efficient.

I read the posts on websites like this and read the about the poor guys who try to keep the "modern boilers" working (extra cost).

Only for the poor quality ones.

Can we really say (if there were an internet) there would be so many boiler break down posts on a website like this twenty years ago?

There would be. Remember in combi the whole systemis inone box. If cylinder stat goes they don't blame the boiler. Let's go on "whole system" faults, that's better.

Has any one ever costed an average service/repair cost of a "modern boiler" over its lifespan compared to an older b/f boiler? I remember when the first Netaheat 10/16 came out the service calls and repair costs went through the roof. In my opinion, since then. it has risen increasingly as to the more components fitted to the boiler the more it breaks down and the more expense the customer has to pay to keep it going.(relative to the simple b/f type of boiler)

Depends on the quality of the boiler. High quality German and Dutch boilers are here. Look at an Atmos.

Sludge is sludge and it messes up any system.

BUT it rarely causes any problem to an older cast iron boiler.

It causes problems to the system as it collects in rads.

The sludge problem has become a massive nightmare cost for everyone involved in the modern boiler technology, from the customer who is now forced to have it all cleaned out to the engineers who have to remove it without causing further damage to property, carpets radiators, etc, just read the posts on pin holed radiators caused by flushing . Not counting the cost to the environment caused by engineers who ruin boilers by not flushing out correctly. It was almost impossible to damage an "ineffcient" 73% boiler with a lazy engineer.

Sludge is sludge and affects all parts of the system even old cast iron rads and boilers.

Again search & read the posts of the competant engineers who post on sites like this they will confirm that too many engineers fail to flush out correctly and the cost is ruined boilers that need replacing too soon. Why was the magnetic filter never invented twenty years ago? because we did not need it!

We did need it. 20 years removing rads and hosing theme out was common as was Fermox cleaner too.

its only now with the modern boilers, they will not run and achieve the efficiencies with dirty water so we spend millions of man hours draining and flushing contaminated water plus cleaning chemicals into the drain system.

Go forced air.

Try 30 to 40%

http://www.sedbuk.com/ That is not a fair or accurate comment. Read and search the Sedbuk site on new and old boilers the best 'A' boilers are 90% and the worst are 65% . Ask any one with gas experience to compare an average type Ideal LX RS250 WM boiler at 72% efficient to an A rated similar model. There is a 18% margin of efficiency yet the old boiler has no fans, pcb's, modulating valves or other costly components that will almost definately need replacing over the life time of the new boiler.

But you save 20%, more like 30%, on expensive fuel bills over its lifetime too, and superior comfort conditions because of superior controls. Those old boilers went down to 55-60% with age.

Can we really say the extra cost of buying, installing & maintaining the 'Steamer' is worth it?

I'm sorry ... I am still not convinced.

You need to do some sums, and get out of the 1970s.

 

[anjme]

You need to do some sums, and get out of the 1970s.

I left skool with 1 'O' level, went straight into the gas industry.
I dont claim to be an expert I read the forums to gain more knowledge and to try get a better understanding of the various boilers we now work with.
We are told that we must save the planet/environment and in my field of work I am told that I must fit a boiler that is 18% more efficient than say the Ideal Classic as quoted in my previous post. But to do this I know from personal experience and reading the posts on these forums that the new boiler will cost much more to buy, cost much more to install, cost much more to service, will need more specialised equipment to service it (and this equipment will need servicing/reparing replacing ) and based on these forums and statistics will need replacing much sooner than my Ideal Classic example.
I am not "stuck" in any era I need people like the good doctor to educate me and to show me factually (How many cylinder stats have gone faulty on a 'Y' plan !) how my example boiler (made during the 90's) in not better than an A rated "modern" boiler.
I am not bursting with 'O' levels, I do not have a doctorate, I am so thick I still cannot work out how it is better to heat a system with a boiler that has many more parts and is burning 32kw of gas at 90% compared to boiler that is using 15kw at 72% .

Like I said..... I am not convinced

 

[Doctor Drivel]

You need to do some sums, and get out of the 1970s.

I left skool with 1 'O' level, went straight into the gas industry.

Well...

We are told that we must save the planet/environment and in my field of work I am told that I must fit a boiler that is 18% more efficient than say the Ideal Classic as quoted in my previous post. But to do this I know from personal experience and reading the posts on these forums that the new boiler will cost much more to buy, cost much more to install, cost much more to service,

What world are you in? Boilers are cheap They are now throw away consumer items. You can pick them up for just over £300 in DIY sheds. In real terms boilers are now buttons. I can't understand cheapos who will not pay an extra few hundred quid for a quality model then whinge when their cheapo scrap brakes down a lot.

will need more specialised equipment to service it (and this equipment will need servicing/reparing replacing )

Some boilers require gas analysers, other do not, just a pressure guage.

and based on these forums and statistics will need replacing much sooner than my Ideal Classic example.

Nonsense!!! A quality boiler will outlast the Classic....and save a fortune on fuel.

I am not "stuck" in any era I need people like the good doctor to educate me and to show me factually (How many cylinder stats have gone faulty on a 'Y' plan !) how my example boiler (made during the 90's) in not better than an A rated "modern" boiler.

You are saying modern boilers brake down a lot and provided no figures. I told you that you must think "system" as the system is inside the box in a combi.

As to your lauding the cast iron boilers, they had large water jackets, in effect a thermal store, as opposed to tubes in many modern boilers. Sludge did accumulate in the cast iron heat exchangers reducing the efficiency greatly. Oil boilers tend to have large water jackets (thermal store and lend well to combi applications). A few modern gas boilers do have large water jackets, the heat exchangers are surrounded by a thermal store: Atmos Multi and ACV Heatmaster are two.

Low water capacity boilers came about to get the size smaller to fit in kitchen cupboards.

I am not bursting with 'O' levels, I do not have a doctorate, I am so thick I still cannot work out how it is better to heat a system with a boiler that has many more parts and is burning 32kw of gas at 90% compared to boiler that is using 15kw at 72%

You said it.

Like I said..... I am not convinced

Because you don't know or understand. Do you drive around in morris Minor as well? Modern cars are infinitely more reliable and economical than 30 odd years ago, and the same goes for quality boilers too.

The trouble with the likes of you is that you just don't understand boilers, systems and controls in any depth having superficial knowledge. You can't even recognise that some boilers are well made and others are not, just putting them all into one lump. We all know that Hondas outlast Ladas and are more reliable, and the same applies to all kit in any field, however you can't see that. Then the mind forms a complete curtain to anything new.

Don't take it personal.

 

[anjme]

Whilst we have the current range of boilers and they are very efficient and all that good stuff, they don't seem to promise the longevity that the old boilers did. ..or even the reliability. Good news for CORGI guys of course but bad news for the consumer

started the post off.......
It is a pity no one else has come in because to you it may look "personal".*
But I say again, educate me..** link or show me the figures that prove why to fit my 72% boiler is virtually a crime in this country..

"You are saying modern boilers brake down a lot and provided no figures"
I did provide figures, the Sedbuk table, after your figure that older boilers ran as low as 50% efficiency! Try 30 - 40% lower you said, but my example runs at 72% efficiency 18% less than the best 'A' boilers and only 8% less than the start of the 'B' boilers (the ones that can be set up with a U guage).
You said "Those old boilers went down to 55-60% with age" so the new boilers do not reduce efficiency with age?
You keep saying "30 years ago" " back in the 1970's" What world are you in ? My example is to compare a 1990 boiler with little or no working parts, linked to a system with at most two (expensive) working parts, pump and diverter valve, with the best A boiler.
You see my world is where even the old cheap boilers, at 72%, lasted 20 years ! (very good for the environment)
The thread is about the environment and longevity of modern boilers, you make a statement to say that a "quality boiler" will outlast the older Ideal Classic type, now that is nonsense. At what cost? that is the whole point of the thread, your modern boiler will last twenty years, but at what cost? your new boiler will not cost more to service/repair ? , it will not need new pcb's, or a fan or heatstats or diverter valves or pumps?

Just take time to read the first hundred posts (about boilers) on this forum, they prove my point, dozens and dozens of complaints about faulty pcb's faulty fans and components in modern well branded boilers. (Tony Glazier has just been to a three year old boiler with a siezed fan !) even the technicians on here berate some of the branded boilers as rubbish and not cost efficient, so where does that leave the efficiency tables, a new Worcester boiler 90% efficient but the fan or pcb packs in after three years? I am not making this stuff up just read the posts.

* You dont know me or my background but you say "The trouble with the likes of you is that you just don't understand boilers, systems and controls in any depth having superficial knowledge" and then you say do not take it personal? ...... in your words...what nonsense.

I like an honest debate or thread with anyone but, as I think you might say..., it's people like you who read the manufacturers efficiency tables and are blind to what is going on in the real world, the world where even the best boilers do not last without expensive repairs, where a £60 pump is 'adapted' to fit a combi and now costs £180, where there are now two pcb boards fitted to boilers at £100 each and when the pump or any other part leaks they may need replacing. How is this energy efficient? You have read how fuel efficient the modern boiler is so over twenty years it will have used so much less gas... but where are the costs for replacement extra parts over the lifetime of the boiler? The real world is the boiler would have been skipped ten years previously after having hundreds of pounds worth of parts fitted in its last declining years.

I know, in your mind, I do not understand boilers. So show me the figures show me how my 1990 72% boiler is, over a twenty year, period less efficient than the best A boiler .....

**Give me a cure 'doctor'