Cameron and the eu ......its a ploy he's double bluffing them !

gasbanni · 18 Feb 2016

I'm begining to think it's a bit like ' Black propaganda' wikipedia might bring up Sefton Delmer if you want to look in to the phrase nothing to do with skin colour.

Maybe he doesn't want a deal at all but is really intent on getting us out but he's back footing them with this talk of a deal. If he really wants to keep us in why did he bring up the referendum at all.
A self defense move is to make like your doing one thing whilst your really going to do something else.

I'm being to suspect Cameron might be doing this, it's just a hunch. Maybe I'm totally of the mark but a good strategic move if that's what he's doing.

I gotta ask the question again if he really wants us to stay in he didn't need to bring the referendum about so why did he ? It seems contradictory to me, I don't believe for one moment it was to shut the dissenters about the eu up.

Fire and Ice · 18 Feb 2016

But it could be a triple bluff and that is what we are meant to think...

Either way, grab the Brexit bat and run with it....

gasbanni · 18 Feb 2016

Fire and Ice said:
But it could be a triple bluff and that is what we are meant to think...

Either way, grab the Brexit bat and run with it....

Don't you worry about that ..........common market was one thing not this EU 5hite

gasbanni · 18 Feb 2016

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefton_Delmer

A bit of info on black propaganda, the idea was that if the german population realised it was from England they wouldn't believe it, but the broadcast were in german fed lies to the population but never criticised Hitler. However they sowed seeds causing discontent about the german hierarchy. For example they hierarchy eat well and didn't have rationing, chocolate had drugs in it to make the workers stay awake longer to work harder, all sorts of scurrilous stuff etc etc .

Himaginn · 19 Feb 2016

gasbanni said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefton_Delmer

A bit of info on black propaganda, the idea was that if the german population realised it was from England they wouldn't believe it, but the broadcast were in german fed lies to the population but never criticised Hitler. However they sowed seeds causing discontent about the german hierarchy. For example they hierarchy eat well and didn't have rationing, chocolate had drugs in it to make the workers stay awake longer to work harder, all sorts of scurrilous stuff etc etc .

Inspector Poirot has solved the case again.

gasbanni · 19 Feb 2016

Himaginn said:
gasbanni said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefton_Delmer

A bit of info on black propaganda, the idea was that if the german population realised it was from England they wouldn't believe it, but the broadcast were in german fed lies to the population but never criticised Hitler. However they sowed seeds causing discontent about the german hierarchy. For example they hierarchy eat well and didn't have rationing, chocolate had drugs in it to make the workers stay awake longer to work harder, all sorts of scurrilous stuff etc etc .

Click to expand...

Inspector Poirot has solved the case again.

Not really I read a book many years ago on black propaganda it was extremely interesting, one of the tricks they did was to produce thousands of stamps with
Himmlers head on them to cause Hitler to think Himmlers was trying to usurp him..........They weren't noticed, so it failed !

gasbanni · 19 Feb 2016

Himaginn said:
gasbanni said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefton_Delmer

A bit of info on black propaganda, the idea was that if the german population realised it was from England they wouldn't believe it, but the broadcast were in german fed lies to the population but never criticised Hitler. However they sowed seeds causing discontent about the german hierarchy. For example they hierarchy eat well and didn't have rationing, chocolate had drugs in it to make the workers stay awake longer to work harder, all sorts of scurrilous stuff etc etc .

Click to expand...

Inspector Poirot has solved the case again.

Ah such wit such repartee

CylonRaider · 19 Feb 2016

As I've said elsewhere.. Cameron is the best asset UKIP have
A Copy & Paste from another place.

Just a reminder: our *entire* influence in the EU is 8%.

We are not 'at the heart of Europe' or any such nonsense.
(We have to leave the room when trade deals are being made)

We have voting rights of 8%.
http://bit.ly/24eeoWB

We are the 5th largest economy on the planet, a position we **** away, in return for 8% influence in the world's ONLY declining trading bloc. And bizarrely, we pay £Billions every year for the privilege. Money unwillingly extracted from poor old taxpayers.

Clear?

Instead, we could have complete freedom, keep the billions we give to the EU, and have 100% decision making ability over everything. We could trade with whom we want, how we want, develop industries, our fisheries, our financial institutions how we like. We would still trade with the countries remaining in the EU. Punitive tariffs are illegal under WTO rules, and the Lisbon Treaty enshrines the fact that any leaving country is granted a trade deal.

The politicians we elect would actually be able to set policy, the vast majority of UK businesses who have nothing to do with the EU would be freed from petty and costly legislation.

We would control our borders, and be able to decide who is allowed in. Brits would still be able to live in any country that'll have them, and go on holiday to Spain or wherever they want.

Gove has now left, Boris next to jump ?
I can't see the Tory party surviving after this.

Nu-Tory anyone ?

Himaginn · 19 Feb 2016

CylonRaider said:
As I've said elsewhere.. Cameron is the best asset UKIP have
A Copy & Paste from another place.

Just a reminder: our *entire* influence in the EU is 8%.

We are not 'at the heart of Europe' or any such nonsense.
(We have to leave the room when trade deals are being made)

Click to expand...

I'd be interested to see where this came from.

CylonRaider said:
We have voting rights of 8%.
http://bit.ly/24eeoWB

We are the 5th largest economy on the planet, a position we **** away, in return for 8% influence in the world's ONLY declining trading bloc. And bizarrely, we pay £Billions every year for the privilege. Money unwillingly extracted from poor old taxpayers.

Clear?

Instead, we could have complete freedom, keep the billions we give to the EU, and have 100% decision making ability over everything. We could trade with whom we want, how we want, develop industries, our fisheries, our financial institutions how we like. We would still trade with the countries remaining in the EU. Punitive tariffs are illegal under WTO rules,

Click to expand...

Define punitive tariffs.

CylonRaider said:
and the Lisbon Treaty enshrines the fact that any leaving country is granted a trade deal.

Click to expand...

I'd like to see where this comes from as well.

CylonRaider said:
The politicians we elect would actually be able to set policy,

Click to expand...

They already can and do. With the exception of Nigel Farage who just objects to everything and tries to offend the EU Parliament.

CylonRaider said:
We would control our borders, and be able to decide who is allowed in. Brits would still be able to live in any country that'll have them,

Click to expand...

without reciprocal deals on health care/ pensions/ car insurance and licences/pets movements, customs allowances, etc.
How will we survive on only two bottles of wine and a few bottles of beer?

And we'll all need new passports.

Himaginn · 19 Feb 2016

Himaginn said:
CylonRaider said:

We would still trade with the countries remaining in the EU. Punitive tariffs are illegal under WTO rules,

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Define punitive tariffs.

Additionally we dealt with this the other day. UK cannot trade with countries that are in the EU, without trading with the EU as a whole!

Himaginn said:
CylonRaider said:

and the Lisbon Treaty enshrines the fact that any leaving country is granted a trade deal.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I'd like to see where this comes from as well.

I've reprinted Article 50 from the Lisbon Treaty, which bolo fist printed the other day:

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th.../title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html
You will note that it says nothing about trading teaties for withdrawing member countries. So this is bunkum.
Disprove one major point and the whole article is undermined.
But I've disproven two major points in the article. So it's double bunkum.

Himaginn · 19 Feb 2016

CylonRaider said:
We are the 5th largest economy on the planet, a position we **** away, in return for 8% influence in the world's ONLY declining trading bloc. And bizarrely, we pay £Billions every year for the privilege. Money unwillingly extracted from poor old taxpayers.

Click to expand...

I'm such a plonker. You got me there good and square!
I thought you were quoting an article from some kind of expert.
But, now I realise from the language used, it was some other dopey plonker's opinion and nothing else, probably from something like a UKIP site!

But you suckered me there! Fair play. I wish you'd told us where it came from and we could have dismissed it out-of-hand.

sbgasman · 20 Feb 2016

Hi Himaginn,could you please provide a few benefits of remaining in the EU.

PBC_1966 · 20 Feb 2016

Himaginn said:
The politicians we elect would actually be able to set policy,

Click to expand...

They already can and do.

Only so far as it does not conflict with EU Directives. While the U.K. remains trapped in the EU, there could be a miracle of every single M.P. in Westminster agreeing to the need for or benefit of some policy, but unless they could get an opt-out from the EU they couldn't implement it.

without reciprocal deals on health care/ pensions/ car insurance and licences/pets movements, customs allowances, etc.

Reciprocal deals can exist outside of the EU. Perhaps not with countries which remain within the EU, since they will be bound by EU rules, but deals could be arranged with any other free nation which desired it.

And we'll all need new passports.

Wouldn't it be nice to see the back of the burgundy passports with "European Union" emblazoned on them and the return of the traditional British passport?

FLIPPINeck · 20 Feb 2016

sbgasman said:
Hi Himaginn,could you please provide a few benefits of remaining in the EU.

Paying 50 odd million quid into it a day , NHS under stress , Housing under stress , Education under stress , Mass uncontrolled immigration , Law and order under stress ,this is just a few of the benefits......................

Deleted member 63160 · 20 Feb 2016

FLIPPINeck said:
sbgasman said:

Hi Himaginn,could you please provide a few benefits of remaining in the EU.

Click to expand...

Paying 50 odd million quid into it a day , NHS under stress , Housing under stress , Education under stress , Mass uncontrolled immigration , Law and order under stress ,this is just a few of the benefits......................

Sounds like a bargain I might change my vote to stay in

Cameron and the eu ......its a ploy he's double bluffing them !

Deleted member 63160

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