Party wall or not?

MattChan · 23 May 2021

I have planning and building regs to infill the small area between my property (in yellow) and next door (in blue) as shown in the drawing below:

I have spoken to my neighbours and they are happy with the plan. As we are on a hill I know that I need to issue a Section 6 Party Wall notice to them as I may have to dig lower than their foundations.

I spoke to a party wall surveyor who reviewed the plans and informed me that the wall on the left indicated as point A in the diagram above is not a party wall and is purely my neighbours wall therefore I can not issue them will a Party Wall notice with respect to bearing the lintel in to it. They suggested we may need to have something drawn up by a lawyer to change the wall from being solely owned by my neighbour to being a party wall.

I'm posting this as a sanity check really before I go and engage a lawyer and part with the cash. Both myself and my neighbours want to have the correct paperwork in place in the event that we come to sell and it gets identified. Any internet experts care to comment on the status of the wall?

Tigercubrider · 23 May 2021

https://www.hsa-surveyors.com/party-wall-common-questions/

"Type B – a wall standing wholly on the land of one owner, but used by two owners to separate their buildings. Any part which doesn’t divide two buildings is not ‘party’ and not covered."

Don't know if thiS helps

Tigercubrider · 23 May 2021

MattChan · 23 May 2021

Thanks, the problem as I see it is that currently it doesn't separate our buildings as its their external wall?

Tigercubrider · 23 May 2021

But part of it separates your kitchen?

MattChan · 23 May 2021

I think the chap i spoke to implied its type A to separate the kitchen but then there is a step in the boundary line and its the neighbours wall once it gets outside as that only serves a purpose to their house.

Is it common for there to be steps in boundary lines?

jeds · 23 May 2021

You aren't obliged to observe strict party wall procedures. If you and your neighbour are happy you are perfectly entitled to proceed with a simple agreement between you. I design and build dozens of extensions just like this - doing one virtually identical at this very moment - and it has never been an issue.

In your case I would not advise bearing a lintel into the neighbours wall anyway. Instead, set the beam onto a column, wholly on your side. In these situations I normally specify a rectangular hollow section (RHS) something like 50x120 will be plenty.

PS. the wall is not a party wall.

MattChan · 23 May 2021

Thanks Jeds

So would a simple agreement be a letter detailing the proposal and attach it to the section 6 party wall notice?

The lintel will have about half a row of blocks on top of it and then the wall plate for the lean to roof. The drawings specify this as a Catnic CG70/100. Whats the reason not to bare into the wall, hassles with making holes etc?

Was the RHS you mention for the column, if so would that require the lintel to be changed?

Nakajo · 24 May 2021

As drawn, I cannot see how this would be inferred as type 'B', but probably I'm missing something obvious.

^woody^ · 24 May 2021

That section of wall is not a party wall as it does not separate two rooms between the properties. The property boundary steps out from the existing party wall and runs down the face of the exposed wall and as such you will need express permission to chop into it, and to plaster it, flash to it, or do anything to it - otherwise its a trespass, and the PWA gives you no rights to do any of this. An this permission be a simple "OK", it will need defining in the deeds and any a right given "in perpetuity", else the next person to buy the the neighbour's house can require everything attached to that wall to be removed.

All this should be drawn up by a legal professional experienced in property law, not a simple note attached to a section 6 notice. If you wanted this changed to a party wall as suggested by that surveyor, then as the neighbour is losing part of his property and will be worse off by allowing this to become a party wall, then if he is wise he will want some compensation for that and that could be quite a tidy sum.

jeds · 24 May 2021

Yes, I would avoid cutting into your neighbours wall because it isn't necessary and it would be better to avoid any potential hassle. I wouldn't use a Catnic type lintel here. Get a steel beam fabricated with a bottom plate and bear it on a small column - or a brick/block pier if you have the width. (the loading you describe is tiny! so the beam would be sized for practicality rather than its stress properties) That way you don't mess with the neighbours wall and the only party wall issue is a 3m notice which you can just agree with your neighbour. I do a lot of party wall work but only when it is necessary for larger commercial projects. It is unnecessary (and a complete waste of money) for 95% of domestic projects.

jeds · 24 May 2021

Just to clarify the PWA status of the wall/s; a party wall separates two buildings. So your kitchen wall is a party wall - because it separates two buildings. The point where the neighbours wall becomes external it no longer separates two buildings and is therefore no longer a party wall. But, the moment you enclose your neighbours wall (i.e. build up against it) the status of the wall changes and it becomes a party wall under the Act.

Nakajo · 24 May 2021

Deleted.

^woody^ · 24 May 2021

jeds said:
But, the moment you enclose your neighbours wall (i.e. build up against it) the status of the wall changes and it becomes a party wall under the Act.

That's a catch 22, as the area can't just be enclosed without the neighbour's permission to attach to the external wall, and it is that permission that will create the party wall not the PWA.

^woody^ · 24 May 2021

Nakajo said:
Whether or not a wall separates two rooms between properties is not relevant; only whether or not it straddles the boundary. A wall separating two rooms and wholly on one side of the boundary is not a Party Wall. A wall enclosing only one room and sitting astride the boundary is a party wall. It may be the case that the boundary offsets, but surely this could only be established by reference to the deeds.

A wall astride the boundary is by default a shared wall and owned by each landowner that the wall sits on.

A wall on one side of a boundary can become a party wall by effectively moving the boundary.

But the OP's situation is very common, where the boundary runs down the centre of the wall separating the two houses and then steps out to the face of the exposed wall . It does not have to checked in the deeds as its an established principle.

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Party wall or not?

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