Hunt the Budget

Mottie · 8 Mar 2024

JohnD said:
tax-dodger.

Describe what you consider 'tax dodging' to be. Oops, question. Sorry, I remember you’ve ignored that question many times, even when I wasn’t on question ignore. If it’s someone that dodges tax by using their tax free allowance or ISA's then both you and I are one. I assume you just mean a richer person than you, legally saving more in tax than you earn in a year. Bastards, eh?

JonathanM · 8 Mar 2024

Mottie said:
Describe what you consider 'tax dodging' to be.

Mottie said:
If it’s someone that dodges tax by using their tax free allowance or ISA's then both you and I are one.

That's the example that's always used. I think a common sense "smell" test is more appropriate. If you have to go to the lengths of setting up a company to loan yourself money, so that you can invest in a fake film production corporation that is intended to make a loss, so that you can write it all off in order to lower your tax bill, then that is very different to a simple, transparent and well publicised scheme, like an ISA, which is set up by the government with the specific intention of encouraging people to save.

securespark · 8 Mar 2024

JohnD said:
We have crumbling schools, hospitals beyond repair, potholed roads, and aircraft carriers that can't get beyond the Isle of Wight. We have Councils going bust due to central government cuts. We have insufficient dentists, nurses and midwives. We have insufficient housing for those in need.

Can we afford to repair the damage?

No, but we can afford to sling a bit of money to try and buy some votes. Even if some of it has to be borrowed, and we end up even poorer.

So if you were in power, what would you do?

JonathanM · 8 Mar 2024

securespark said:
So if you were in power, what would you do?

martygturner · 8 Mar 2024

well if it was me I would go for a fully progressive tax system. -Abandon all stealth double taxation, vat, fuel, and energy, insurance etc which are regressive affecting those on the lowest incomes the most. Have a good tax free threshold, then tax all other earnings, no capital gains reliefs, isa, pension etc etc. Charge council tax by the rate of income tax a person pays.

The trouble with our society is nobody actually knows what they pay in taxation to run the country...its about time we did.

Eg - hypothetical family x - 2 earners bringing in 50k 35k /15k split with two children... just how much tax do they pay ? should'nt be difficult should it. 35k - 7k tax and ni 15k -£763. They then get back -£2123 in child benefit. so in effect they are paying 6k in tax and ni right....

Hmmm - then there is council tax no moving away from that - average 3 bed house band d is now 2k, so they are back to 8k tax without blinking.

Then there are all the stealth taxes..insurance (IPT) on home is now 12% tax, same as car insurance, then there is the undisclosed vat...at 20%..thats all the items that do not show that you are paying vat when you really are its just not noted eg clothes. IFS estimate that in a standard 50k household 8k a year is paid out in hidden taxes.... so my couple has 1 person working for nothing....

They point out that whatever your tax bill is double it and you will get your real tax bill. Should we all not know exactly what we pay ? how else can we hold those spending it to account ?

SirGalahad · 8 Mar 2024

martygturner said:
well if it was me I would go for a fully progressive tax system. -Abandon all stealth double taxation, vat, fuel, and energy, insurance etc which are regressive affecting those on the lowest incomes the most. Have a good tax free threshold, then tax all other earnings, no capital gains reliefs, isa, pension etc etc. Charge council tax by the rate of income tax a person pays.

The trouble with our society is nobody actually knows what they pay in taxation to run the country...its about time we did.

Eg - hypothetical family x - 2 earners bringing in 50k 35k /15k split with two children... just how much tax do they pay ? should'nt be difficult should it. 35k - 7k tax and ni 15k -£763. They then get back -£2123 in child benefit. so in effect they are paying 6k in tax and ni right....

Hmmm - then there is council tax no moving away from that - average 3 bed house band d is now 2k, so they are back to 8k tax without blinking.

Then there are all the stealth taxes..insurance (IPT) on home is now 12% tax, same as car insurance, then there is the undisclosed vat...at 20%..thats all the items that do not show that you are paying vat when you really are its just not noted eg clothes. IFS estimate that in a standard 50k household 8k a year is paid out in hidden taxes.... so my couple has 1 person working for nothing....

They point out that whatever your tax bill is double it and you will get your real tax bill. Should we all not know exactly what we pay ? how else can we hold those spending it to account ?

Look into Land Value Tax, it's the fairest and most efficient way to raise taxes and replace alot of the taxation.

Brigadier · 8 Mar 2024

martygturner said:
The trouble with our society is nobody actually knows what they pay in taxation ......................its about time we did.

The trouble with such clarity would be that, under our current system (and because a critical mass of the electorate are stupid, selfish, and often both), the two main parties would likely have to embark on a race-to-the-bottom; who would promise the lowest tax rate would win the GE.

So, regardless of how well the winning government would spend and invest, there would likely be lower tax receipts to start with.

JonathanM · 8 Mar 2024

Even if we had much greater transparency, that would probably still leave massive problems to fix.

If the new normal for GDP growth is half what we were used to, then how do we adjust to that. Are people just going to accept that their standard of living is not going to increase like it used to.

carmanmemoranda · 8 Mar 2024

Murdochcat said:
So how much extra tax and NI are you willing to pay?

For a start, he should have avoided the ni cut. A small increase of tax too wouldn't have hurt

carmanmemoranda · 8 Mar 2024

motorbiking said:
He could pay 10 X more and still pay less than those he likes to hate.

I don't think it's hate, but only he can answer that.

But you delight in the avoidance of tax on your essential boat. If you can afford the boat you can afford the tax, regardless of how much you pay or don't pay.

JohnD · 8 Mar 2024

securespark said:
So if you were in power, what would you do?

Start by trying to diminish the belief that Britain is a poor country that cannot afford, and does not deserve, good public services, and decent living conditions for its population, and good education and health, even for the children of those in the bottom 60% of incomes.

And that Britain is at the same time rich enough to afford allowances, special deals and handouts to billionaires and to multinationals, and that this is to the benefit of the population as a whole.

It is very difficult for a government to divert resources to benefit the nation if voters have been convinced that is better to channel them to the rich.

JohnD · 8 Mar 2024

SirGalahad said:
Look into Land Value Tax, it's the fairest and most efficient way to raise taxes and replace alot of the taxation.

The problem with that, is that the majority of land wealth in the UK is held by the richest, so taxing it would be combated by them, their media channels, their politicians and their hired hands.

motorbiking · 8 Mar 2024

carmanmemoranda said:
I don't think it's hate, but only he can answer that.

But you delight in the avoidance of tax on your essential boat. If you can afford the boat you can afford the tax, regardless of how much you pay or don't pay.

A government approved scheme that has encouraged investment in the UK you mean?
It's strange to describe a scheme approved and promoted by the government as a tax avoidance scheme. I assume you don't have an ISA or have never purchased duty free?

carmanmemoranda · 8 Mar 2024

motorbiking said:
A government approved scheme that has encouraged investment in the UK you mean?
It's strange to describe a scheme approved and promoted by the government as a tax avoidance scheme. I assume you don't have an ISA or have never purchased duty free?

Different things altogether and you know it.

Tax (non) avoidance on the scale you enjoy would help the country massively.

motorbiking · 8 Mar 2024

So it's about how much at the end of the day?

good - You'll be happy with my contribution and you'll forgive my lack of sympathy for those who pay hardly any and moan... a lot.

Hunt the Budget

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