1 way 2 gang (probably no neutral) to smart switch

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I have this 1 way 2 gang here. Each switch controls a separate light.

IMG_20220616_185551.jpg


Originally wanted to put a smart switch but not too happy with not having a neutral (I have no neutral right?).

Would I be able to put a Sonoff Mini in the ceiling rose to feed off the neutral?

IMG_20220615_225116.jpg


Is there any way to have a Sonoff Mini in the rose control both lights (my guess is no because at best the Sonoff can bypass the switch to feed to light but not the second light)? If so would you recommend two Mini's in the roses or going with a no neutral 2 gang switch?

Bonus question. In a second room I have this, the blue is likely neutral right?
IMG_20220616_185149.jpg
 
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First picture -

No neutral but IF both lights are on the same circuit, the wires could be reconfigured to make one of them a neutral.
Can we have picture of the wiring at the other ceiling rose?



Second picture -

Looks like neutrals in the connector block - are there three? Picture is not very good.
 
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Yeah there are three. I'll get a better picture tomorrow.

Other rose, just checked it looked absolutely awful...
IMG_20220615_225159.jpg
 
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I have used zigbee and energenie to control lights, with bulbs, relays, switches, and sockets both fixed and plug in. Most of my light switches have no neutral, and both zigbee and energenie need gateways, and each method has pros and cons.

The relay needs room to mount it DSC_6056.jpg seen here being tested, and this was finished result Centre_bulb_colours.jpg DSC_6799.jpg the relay turns switch into an extra low voltage device, so it works like a two way switch with the standard switch, but to get the colours I used a smart bulb in the centre. I had hoped to use a remote control from Lidi but it Lidi-remote.jpg would not work with relay, just some of the smart bulbs. The Zigbee app does not work very well with the PC, but great with phone or tablet, the energenie I have had longer and did at one point have 5 wall switched, but they went wrong after a year or two so now down to 2 which are between 2 and 6 years old, also had socket go wrong, so now prefer a smart bulb or plug in device, so if it fails easy to replace, the zigbee from Lidi shows if on/off at the app, but the energenie does not except for the ones doing energy monitoring.

Having no neutral seems to work OK with a BA22d bulb, but smaller bulbs had a problem the smaller of the two bulbs G9-comp.jpg needed a load capacitor load-capacitor.jpg in the light or it would not switch off.
 
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Remember - only IF the lights are on the same circuit.

You need to go from this:

1655420116708.png


To this:

1655420163192.png


Make sure you choose the right brown wire - the one in the same cable as the switched live blue.
I cannot tell which is which from the pictures.

I have shown the bare minimum changes but obviously it would be better to swap the blue and brown so that the blue is the new neutral.
 
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I have a 4 gang switch in my hall way, switch one is extra low voltage, switch two used one neutral and switch three and four use a different neutral, it seems from new build the neutrals were wrong, only found when all RCBO protection was fitted.

@EFLImpudence circuit may work, but you need to be sure on the same circuit, my house has three lighting circuits, one for each floor, so one needs to carefully test first.

In the main a smart switch is default off, and a smart bulb is default on, so with a power cut on return of power smart switches stay off, and smart bulbs come on, the latter is handy, as even without the app, turning the switch off and then on again will turn lights on.

Smart switches without a neutral have two problems, one is some times when switched off the bulb will flash, and second some times when on the bulb will get a shimmer, it does depend on the bulb used, the larger of the pair shown in my last post has a large capacitor inside which stops the shimmer, the switches I use say minimum 5 watt, these are simple on/off not dimming switches, you can get master and slave switches but never seen slaves sold on their own, seems you have to buy as a pair.

The relay DSC_6062.jpg allows you to combine switch and app, the two wires shown at top of relay go to switch, and switch becomes extra low voltage, it monitors change of state, does not matter if switch on or off, the change will cause relay to switch, so it combines the app and existing switch/es together so either can turn lights on or off.

I use the relay with just one set of lamps, as it allowed me to separate the lamps into outer and inner so I can independently switch them. With most lamps best option seems to be the smart bulb, no worries about if it will work with the switch, only when there are multi-bulbs do you need to smart switch.
 
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Wow that's very interesting, never considered switching the live/neutral.
I Guess I could mark them to make it obvious to anyone that would be working on them, if I were to do this. I would just have to check that the neutrals and browns are on the same circuit, should be able to do that with continuity the lights are quite close.

Is it enough that they're on the same circuit or do they need to be the only lights on the circuit?

By the way, that second rose with all the fluffy grey bits, is that normal, doesn't matter or unsafe?
 
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Ericmark, did you have any issues with the no neutral other than having to add the capacitor? Are you happy with performance? Have you checked power draw? It does seem like a safer/simpler solution perhaps.
 
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It does seem like a safer/simpler solution perhaps.
The capacitor is connected between Switched Live and Neutral at the lamp, therefore when the lamp is switched ON there is 230 volts AC directly across the capacitor. Provided the capacitor is a good quality component that has been designed to be connected directly to a mains supply and fail in a safe mode then it is a simple and safe solution,

Not all capacitors fail safe,

My preference is to use a capacitor with a resistor in series where the resistor acts a a fuse should the capacitor fail short circuit.

Which come pre-packaged as a contact suppressor from RS Components.

As a contact suppressor it would be connected at the switch across the switch contacts but a source of pseudo Neutral it is fitted across the lamp

KEMET RC Capacitor 470nF 100Ω Tolerance ±20% 250 V ac, 630 V dc 1-way Through Hole PMR209 Series
RS Stock No. 206-7869
Manufacturer Evox-Rifa
Manufacturers Part No. PMR209ME6470M100R30

Other source are available
 
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I fitted the first Energenie switch light_switch.jpg in my mothers house in the bedroom I used using a remote control Remote control.jpg since no two way switching and it worked A1 for the three years we lived with my mother to look after her, nothing done other than fit switch, had a 12 watt LED BA22d bulb, and very satisfied the way it worked.

I also had a double socket, and some TRV heads all using same system. Again worked very well.

When I moved to this house all energenie stuff removed from mothers house and brought here, and HomeBase were selling off energenie stuff so bought a load more. Mihome-used-crop.jpg This is when the problems started, of the 5 switches fitted, only one gave a problem to start with, so first added the load capacitor load-capacitor.jpg but still got a shimmer when on, so changed bulbs the small one G9-comp.jpg had the shimmer, the large one worked A1, had some shimmer with GU10 bulbs, but only real problem was with the G9 bulbs, the E14 bulbs were OK as were the BA22d bulbs, the problem was the small G9 LED bulbs, putting just one quartz bulb with other 4 LED also worked A1, but did not really want tungsten bulbs.

Over the next year every so often the living room switch would stop working, if I turned off the power, and switched it back on it would work OK again, I think due to number of devices I have, but removed the switch in living room, and over the next year removed two more switches so now only 2 still in use, and a socket which seemed to turn itself into a flasher unit.

Since removing the 4 devices the rest have worked A1, but when Lidi did their smart range which uses Zigbee I started using Zigbee instead, the zigbee does not seem to work from the PC very well, but tablet and phone it works well with, now have 18 devices using Zigbee and the Smart Life app.

The Zigbee devices show in app if on or off, the energenie does not, every so often I have to reboot the energenie hub, never had a problem with zigbee, but the energenie remote control works direct and does not need the hub, and having the remote control at the side of bed works well. The remote control with Lidi will not work the relay, only the bulbs, some bulbs work through the hub, and some work direct to app Smart Life, I can't remember which are which.

There seems to be all sorts you can do, Automation.jpg but I found not all items have the ability to do all functions, it seems to vary make to make, however as yet touch wood, only one smart bulb has failed, I got a pair of GU10 colour changing bulbs for the centre of the chandelier shown on previous post, and one of pair failed.

I have not had many LED bulbs and tubes fail, can count on one hand, so would prefer to use smart bulbs when I can, as if anything does go wrong, it is easy to correct, simply unplug and replace, where when the light switch went wrong, I had to switch off all lighting power to replace the switch.

Using Nest Mini has been mixed results, think they like a women's voice, always do as told for my wife, but I will have a few attempts, maybe because I have no teeth and waiting for dentures, but see will say turn on landing lights and it works A1 for her. It is handy when carrying two cups of coffee upstairs to use voice commands, but that is to me being really lazy.

Nest Mini with energenie did not work so well, I would say turn off, as it was playing BBC 4 extra, and instead of turning off music, it would say turning off 5 switches and plunge us into darkness, but turn lights back on would get don't know how to do that yet. Likely using wrong phrase, but never got it to turn lights on, but it would turn them off no problem.

I love the automation, I will look at phone while shopping and if living room too hot, turn on the AC so room cool on return, when using so much the cost of the hub is nothing, however I find the eQ-3 bluetooth TRV heads work better than the energenie wifi heads even if the energenie were 3 times the price, but other than checking room temperature we don't really use the wifi function.

Yes I know your talking about lights, but with us same system also does heating and sockets, I even check on my beer brewing using same system. And can see when my car battery is charged.

As to Alexia v Google Mini, they seem to do same thing, son has Alexia, problem is when grand kids set an alarm call at 5 am before they leave.
 
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Wow that's very interesting, never considered switching the live/neutral.
Well, you mean swapping. Lives are often switched; the Neutral shouldn't be.
I Guess I could mark them to make it obvious to anyone that would be working on them,
You could but It will be obvious.
if I were to do this. I would just have to check that the neutrals and browns are on the same circuit, should be able to do that with continuity the lights are quite close.
No, just make sure the two lights are controlled by the same fuse/circuit breaker in the CU.
Is it enough that they're on the same circuit or do they need to be the only lights on the circuit?
As above.
By the way, that second rose with all the fluffy grey bits, is that normal, doesn't matter or unsafe?
I see you have asked in another thread.
I didn't think anything when I first saw it - just dirty - brush and vacuum it.
 
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Remember - only IF the lights are on the same circuit.

You need to go from this:

View attachment 272309

To this:

View attachment 272310

Make sure you choose the right brown wire - the one in the same cable as the switched live blue.
I cannot tell which is which from the pictures.

I have shown the bare minimum changes but obviously it would be better to swap the blue and brown so that the blue is the new neutral.
I would rewire the brown wire the switched live and the blue wire the neutral. Get rid of the sleeves.
 

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