110V vs 230V - a dumb question?

[JohnW2]

Depends how fast it is and just how good a contact it makes. An RCD improves the odds.

Yep, it probably does.

Kind Regards, John

 

[HeavyLiftter]

Now I start to understand why everybody here thinks 230V is something considerably dangerous.

London City Airport 2013:

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• HeavyLiftter
• 9 Dec 2013
• 1

Somebody found it necessary to put an RCD in the sockets where dumb tourists frequently do the ball pen trick to get their laptops plugged in. And all the other sockets in the building?

The distribution panel in the basement of my house dated early 1980s:

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• HeavyLiftter
• 9 Dec 2013
• 1

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• HeavyLiftter
• 9 Dec 2013
• 1

There are two 4 pole 30mA RCDs, one for the living area, one for the basement and the garage. Look at the label saying 380V. They are really from that time. All sockets, lamps, whatever are secured, whenever there is the slightest ground fault, all 3 phases and the neutral are shut off in the whole area. Excempt are only the heat pump central heating and the central hot water boiler, both 400V 3 phase, which are fix wired by a certified electrician without any user accessible plugs.

Over here every kid knows that the lights will go off if you drop the hair dryer in the bath tub, but daddy said it is dangerous anyway, so don't ever do that.

My mother in law recently tested those unvoluntarily. The old school houswife cleaned the tiled kitchen walls with a wet cloth. She didn't get a shock, she didn't even realize, she was the reason for the blackout. By switching the different fuses on and trying to engage the RCD I could locate the problem to the kitchen. It took more than 24h until the socket was dry enough to keep the RCD from triggering. Now she knows why not to use wet cloths on sockets... Guess: Because the lights will go off for a while

I can imagine that the respect for unsecured 230V stays for a long while longer than the date the rule was introduced to have RCDs for every socket. From what time is the 110V workaround rule for construction sites?

 

[Monkeh]

Now I start to understand why everybody here thinks 230V is something considerably dangerous.

We do?

All sockets, lamps, whatever are secured, whenever there is the slightest ground fault, all 3 phases and the neutral are shut off in the whole area.

And that would fall afoul of current regulations. Also common sense.

 

[JohnW2]

All sockets, lamps, whatever are secured, whenever there is the slightest ground fault, all 3 phases and the neutral are shut off in the whole area.

And that would fall afoul of current regulations. Also common sense.

Here it would, but I know nothing about Swiss regulations, and not much more about Swiss common sense!

Kind Regards, John

 

[HeavyLiftter]

Yes I heard about these UK regulations not to switch off everything but only parts.
Appart from hospitals, space shuttles and air crafts I got difficulties to find reasons why a cut of energy would not lead to a safe state. Uncomfortable, but safe.
Public buildings are equipped with battery powered emergency lights that automatically switch on to allow evacuation of the building during a blackout.
Server rooms and such are excempt from RCDs, but their doors are locked so access to unsecured sockets is for experts only.

 

[JohnW2]

Appart from hospitals, space shuttles and air crafts I got difficulties to find reasons why a cut of energy would not lead to a safe state. Uncomfortable, but safe.

There is a belief held by some, presumably including those who wrote the UK regulations, that suddenly being plunged into darkness will cause people to fall off ladders, fall down stairs, break bones, set fire to themselves with hot cooking equipment etc. Examples of this ever actually having happened are, however, not to easy to find!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Swiss common sense!

An oxymoron, if HeavyLiftter is typical.

 

[bernardgreen]

I got difficulties to find reasons why a cut of energy would not lead to a safe state.

Try giving first aid in a dark domestic kitchen. Try hand winding a stair lift to where the panic stricken person in the chair can be safely taken off the stair lift. Could you even find the winding mechanismm in the dark ?.

 

[HeavyLiftter]

I got difficulties to find reasons why a cut of energy would not lead to a safe state.

Try giving first aid in a dark domestic kitchen. Try hand winding a stair lift to where the panic stricken person in the chair can be safely taken off the stair lift. Could you even find the winding mechanismm in the dark ?.

Well you quotet only half the sentence.
But yes, in the office building I'm sitting now, there are rechargeable battery operated emergncy lights. There are portable handlamps hanging in the staircase. The front door is an automatic sliding door that won't work without power unless you know how to switch it to hand operation, so the escape route goes through the side and back doors.
Old school citizens have candles at hand. The younger ones have flash lights and the even younger ones a smart phone app. In some places (Bavaria) it is still mandatory build a chimmney into your new house suitable for a wood stove, even if you do not intent to use it, just in case. Even if the energy supply, including gas, light oil, etc. is very reliable it is not taken for granted. Last year an excavator damaged the main cable for the entire village (130 inhabitants) and we have been without electricity for almost 24h. So what? No big deal. The water supply still worked, the phone lines and the cell phone network too. No need to panik. The village even has a bunker accommodating all inhabitants for up to 4 weeks in case of a nuclear attack, but this is a Swissmaniac thing I consider exaggerated. But it is nice to have as it is used as a city hall for events like the Raclette-Evening, Womens Carneval, etc.

So if you need a stair lift you better buy a proper one that does not leave you hanging half way in the dark. The only one I know is battery operated. It is only charged in its parking position. That safes the power rails all along the way. It has lights on in travel direction while in operation, not to run the cat/dog over and a red button that would send off a text message to the Spitex (the ones helping elderly and disabled at their homes) in case the person forgot the one-button-cell-phone in the upper floor.

A neighbour has a disabled kid that needed a breathing machine from time to time. Guess what. It is rechargeable and can operate 3h without external power and starts beeping and flashing penetrantly once the external power fails or is unplugged.

And an RCD never triggers unless there is something terribly wrong with your wiring or the appliance plugged in and very likely dangerous to touch. When I bought the house it came with an electricians test result about the total ground fault of the installation. It was below measurable. The units in the form were microAmpere (micro not mili).

I think you cannot run a unsecured pure nature socket that will only shut off at 16A or whatever it's rated current is and say it would be unsafe to make it safe (or say much safer) because darkness is more dangerous.

 

[EFLImpudence]

What is the point of this thread?

I am sure such a discussion could be undertaken between the merits and faults of any two countries.

If its intention is to say Britain is far from perfect; I think we know that.

That may seem odd since we have been overrun with Europeans for two thousand years.

 

[HeavyLiftter]

Well I face an obstacle and used the forums knowledge to try out alternatives. It drifted away to the question if there is only one way to Rome or several, still interesting.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Raclette-Evening, Womens Carneval,

Hey hey - melted cheese and wimmin in Carnival costumes - sounds like fun.

When I bought the house it came with an electricians test result about the total ground fault of the installation. It was below measurable. The units in the form were microAmpere (micro not mili).

So what? The installation per se is bound not to generate its "own" earth fault currents of any magnitude, a 100MΩ IR to earth translates to 2.3μA. Take that figure up to several '00MΩ, or even GΩ (the raw performance of new cable), and you're into nA.

None of that stops every device with a SMPSU generating 3mA (or more) of leakage.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That may seem odd since we have been overrun with Europeans for two thousand years.

And other races - Norsemen for example. Descendents of whom (who even though they spoke French, weren't really) invaded and took over in 1066.

But we assimilated them, and within a few hundred years French was being taught here as a foreign language.

 

[EFLImpudence]

And other races - Norsemen for example. Descendents of whom (who even though they spoke French, weren't really) invaded and took over in 1066.

They were included in my 'Europeans'.

But we assimilated them, and within a few hundred years French was being taught here as a foreign language.

Not really. That was their cunning plan.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

They were included in my 'Europeans'.

So they were Scandinavian in the 9th & 10th centuries, but European by the 11th?