17th Edition

[asthpsw]

I'm not an electrician which is why I've always employed competent guys.

In Feb 2009 I asked a company to come a do an inspection at my domestic property. The guy sorted out the consumer unit before the inspection (as it had a number of additions in the previous couple of years.....Shower, Bathroom heater, Electric oven, hob etc)....he also on my request put the Kitchen extension sockets on a seperate circuit.
He then gave me a satisfactory Inspection with a recommended re inspection in 5 years. He did say to me that there were certain items that didn't comply with the 17th edition but "then if he was to do an inspection on any of the propertys local to me that would be the same but my installation is safe".................I was happy with this.

I have a contract with British Gas including Electrics and the 2 pole switch for the Shower needed replacing which they did, however I did ask them to check the cable feed into the top of the shower and thus he therefore made comment on the shower circuit and issued a "Notification Your Electrical appliance and /or Installation Not to Current Standards or At Risk"

The BG man has not "crossed out" that which doesn't apply but I'm guessing (& I know I shouldn't have to guess) he means not to current standards.

He has mentioned "Fuseboard not to 17th Regs".

Does this mean the installation / shower circuit is unsafe ?
Does this mean I'm breaking any law ?

Why I ask is that as I say above the guy who did me the 5 year interval inspection (& the paperwork does say it was caqrried out under the 17th amendment) said it was Safe ...& I have looked he did test/inspect the Shower Circuit & no changes what so ever has been done since then (other than of course replacement of the pole switch).

The BG guy that came was happy with the installation as far as he was replacing the Pole switch..............it was me who asked for a quick inspection before he left.

Thanks

Paul

 

[riveralt]

The 17th edition states that previous installation should not necessarily be deemed unsafe if they do not meet the new current standards.

The so called 17th edition consumer unit (fuse board) has RCD protection built in - it may well be that yours doesn't - but since you have been using it safely for a number of years then there is nothing wrong with your current installation.

The shower manufacturers in their instructions have moved for stating that you 'should' or it is 'advised' to have RCD protection to you MUST have RCD protection.

So when you change your shower next, that will be the time to upgrade your installation to include RCD protection if it doesn't already have it.

 

[asthpsw]

Thanks for the Reply.

Yes the installation does have RCD protection, this is something I asked to be installed when I first moved to the property in 1993, it has since been upgraded and indeed when the Period Inspection was done in Feb 2009 I see the report actually tests how quick the RCD cuts off & protects and at what Current this does this at.
This RCD protection is for the whole installation in the house, does the "Must" now require it Dedicated to the Shower Circuit ?

I think I'll get BG Customer Services to get the Report to have the correct boxes ticked for starters.

Other comments are :

Appliance / Installation Labelled 'Yes'
Minor Works Certificate Issued 'No'
Quotation for work raised 'No'

It says "Your appliance / Installation has been identified as At Risk / Not to current Standards (Delete as appropriate) ...But nothing has been deleted ? :
Then further says :
Fuseboard not to current 17th Regs
Earth Bond (PEB) not visible on water
Cable Entry to shower sealed with Silicone by 3rd party
Shower circuit on a 50 Amp - 6mm cable - no rating plate.

Paul

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Fuseboard not to current 17th Regs

It's not (1 RCD for the entire installation).

Earth Bond (PEB) not visible on water

That can be serious - you should either look to see if the incoming water supply is bonded, or install it.

Cable Entry to shower sealed with Silicone by 3rd party

Implies that the shower was not installed properly. The sealing may have been done effectively, or it may not, but it's not supposed to be necessary.

Shower circuit on a 50 Amp - 6mm cable - no rating plate.

Definitely wrong, unsafe, and has never been right - nothing to do with changes in the 17th Edition.

A 6mm² cable is not rated at 50A, and if it runs through thermal insulation anywhere it could be rated as low as 23.5A.

You really should get that resolved. What is the power of the shower?

 

[ericmark]

Thanks for the Reply.

Yes the installation does have RCD protection, this is something I asked to be installed when I first moved to the property in 1993, it has since been upgraded and indeed when the Period Inspection was done in Feb 2009 I see the report actually tests how quick the RCD cuts off & protects and at what Current this does this at.
This RCD protection is for the whole installation in the house, does the "Must" now require it Dedicated to the Shower Circuit ?

I think I'll get BG Customer Services to get the Report to have the correct boxes ticked for starters.

Other comments are :

Appliance / Installation Labelled 'Yes'
Minor Works Certificate Issued 'No'
Quotation for work raised 'No'

It says "Your appliance / Installation has been identified as At Risk / Not to current Standards (Delete as appropriate) ...But nothing has been deleted ? :
Then further says :
Fuseboard not to current 17th Regs

Although most people consider you should have two RCD's at least. The way the regulations are worded does not say you must have two RCD's and unless their tripping causes a danger or happens without a fault then it would be hard to show it does not comply. In fact caravans always have the whole supply through one RCD.

Earth Bond (PEB) not visible on water

Under the old system this would be code 3 as not tested. One can easy put a loop impedance meter onto the water to test if connected and to me not testing and just saying can't see it is rather a poor way to get out of the problem.

Cable Entry to shower sealed with Silicone by 3rd party

As with last one all they are saying is they have not inspected so in both cases they are leaving it to you to decide if to test further or not.

Shower circuit on a 50 Amp - 6mm cable - no rating plate.

Paul

This is also really wide open and says nothing really. Using thermosetting or Ali-tube cable 6mm can be rated as high as 58A clipped direct. However it is unlikely to be thermosetting more likely thermoplastic which clipped direct drops to 47A although in that case 3A under rated I would not be too worried. However since it says "sealed with Silicone" I would not expect to find it clipped direct. 6mm could be rated as low as 23.5A but likely it will be Reference Method 100# (above a plasterboard ceiling covered by thermal insulation not exceeding 100 mm in thickness) which means rated at 34A as can be easy seen this is well below the 50A it is protected to.

But from your description it was inspected so this leaves a number of possibilities.

1) It's not 6mm but 10mm this would still be under rated being 45A but not really much to worry about.
2) The guy doing first inspection missed it.

This does not really help you. So only option is to get some one to come and check.

 

[asthpsw]

Thanks for all the replys.

The shower is rated at 9.5KW

I'll look at the Period Inspection Report that the guy did in 2009 as the shower circuit was the first item and see whether he has it down as 6mm or 10mm............he did infact take the shower unit front off, the BG guy never.

This Earth bond is this where the Cold water supply pipe enters the house ? ...or in this instance should there be a connection to a cold water pipe actually in the bathroom ?

So in view of what has been said re RCD's and the consumer unit then him saying not complying with the 17th amendment can not be related to the RCD

The guys that installed the shower unit installed it so that the cable enters the unit from the top R/H/S and the silcone sealant refers to around the cable entry into the unit.

Paul

 

[asthpsw]

The shower circuit has been reported : 10mm Live and 6mm CPC.

Also what does "presence of main equipotential bonding conductor" mean ?

Paul

 

[ban-all-sheds]

//www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:earthing-supply-types-and-bonding

 

[Adam_151]

The shower circuit has been reported : 10mm Live and 6mm CPC.

Its wrong unless there is a separate CPC run alongside.

10mm twin and earth has a 4mm cpc (although lots of people seem to put it down as 6mm)

 

[securespark]

Earth Bond (PEB) not visible on water

Under the old system this would be code 3 as not tested. One can easy put a loop impedance meter onto the water to test if connected and to me not testing and just saying can't see it is rather a poor way to get out of the problem.

AFAICT, BG only do a visual on the PEB's.

If you put a meter on a pipe, it may tell you there is some connection to earth, but who's to say where it is or what the CSA is, or even if it has a
PEB at all?

 

[asthpsw]

Thanks to everyone............I've also looked at the Links kindly supplied, however I'm not an electrician. So basically is this Safe & not to 17th Edition or is it unsafe.

Basically I employed an Electrician to install everything for the electrics for the shower vin 2008, I then had the period Inspection carried out by a "qualified" Inspector basically to establish if it was safe & legal.

Paul

 

[sparkwright]

Before 17th edition not all circuits were protected by RCDs. I would certainly prefer to see an RCD protecting a shower.

Can you send photos of your consumer unit please?