3 double sockets on a three phase circuit

[Lectrician]

That seems to be the reg that has been mis-interpreted:

524.2 The neutral conductor, if any, shall have a cross-sectional area not less than that of the line conductor:
(i) in single-phase, two-wire circuits, whatever the cross-sectional area.
(ii) in polyphase and single-phase three-wire circuits, where the size of the line conductors is less than or equal to 16 mm2 for copper, or 25 mm2 for aluminium.
(iii) in circuits where it is required according to Regulation 523.6.3.

 

[SimonH2]

That seems to be the reg that has been mis-interpreted:

524.2 The neutral conductor ...

A side question ...
When you guys come up with the numbers (apparently quite easily), is it by :
1) Knowing the book inside out and being able to go to the right section and then just manually look for the specific reg
2) Having an electronic version you can search
or
3) Something else

 

[Lectrician]

I have an electronic copy of the red regs, paper copy of the green. When I cut/paste to here, I use the electronic copy which is searchable.

I only found this reg with a pointer from mfarrow (post before mine). I did try searching the regs yesterday by key words of the guys 'observation', but it didn't turn much up. I guess I should have had a good read of cable sizing.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Comments?

Advise the customer to claim a full or partial refund of the fee he paid for the EICR, with legal action to follow if it is not forthcoming, on the grounds that the person who did it was not sufficiently competent and did not exercise reasonable skill and care when carrying out the Inspection & Testing, and was therefore fraudulent when certifying that he had.

 

[mfarrow]

Number 2 for me. I have a searchable version, tried "16mm" then "16 mm" which yielded an easy find.

 

[RF Lighting]

I just know the book inside out.

 

[JohnW2]

1) Knowing the book inside out and being able to go to the right section and then just manually look for the specific reg

There really ought to be a 1a and 1b there. I certainly don't 'know the book inside out' but I probably do have a very good knowledge of what/where all the main sections are - and then it's down to "just manually look for the specific reg". So, 'no' to 1a and 'yes' to 1b for me!! ... having said that, a relatively modest handful of the regs come up time after time, so I tend to remember the numbers of them - but I virtually always look to check, lest I make a fool of myself (bigger fool than usual, that is!)

Kind Regards, John

 

[RF Lighting]

At the back of the regs, there's an index. It's really useful

 

[JohnW2]

At the back of the regs, there's an index. It's really useful

The index is of some help, but I have to say that just going to the 'right section' and eyeballing for the required reg is very often the quickest way for me. It's not the world's best index.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Adam_151]

Advise the customer to claim a full or partial refund of the fee he paid for the EICR, with legal action to follow if it is not forthcoming, on the grounds that the person who did it was not sufficiently competent and did not exercise reasonable skill and care when carrying out the Inspection & Testing, and was therefore fraudulent when certifying that he had.

What percentage of EICRs carried out do you think the above could apply to...

To be fair this one sounds like it falls into the 'a few strange bits but mostly okay' category. There are some out there which are only fit for toilet paper

As to the OP, I'd be wanting to see a 415v warning label on there (although I'd have to check if that reg is still there), also if a circuit has been re-purposed it might not be correctly labelled at the dis-board, If this is a former fixed equipment circuit it may not have met 0.4 sec disconnection times?, also I'd be questioning if the arrangement suggests a high power density is required and the connected loads might possibly lead to overloading of the 13A socket fronts... I'd hazard a guess that this might be in a fork truck charging area?.

I don't however see any issues which the size of neutrals

 

[JohnW2]

What percentage of EICRs carried out do you think the above could apply to...
To be fair this one sounds like it falls into the 'a few strange bits but mostly okay' category.

Possibly but, to be even more fair, we've only really been told about the 'few strange bits', so don't really know that the rest was 'mostly OK'. However, you're quite probably right, but I do sympathise with what probably moved BAS to write what he did, even if what he wrote was, IMO, a little OTT. In essence, IMO (and probably in BAS's opinion) it's frightening that someone with so little understanding of the basic principles as to have been able to misinterpret the reg in the way that he apparently did should be doing EICRs (or probably any electrical work!). As always, the problem is not with 'obviously daft' things, but, rather, with the things reported as OK by a person with questionable understanding.

As to the OP, I'd be wanting to see a 415v warning label on there (although I'd have to check if that reg is still there) ....

We've discussed '415V stickers' a lot in the past. What do you think they achieve? Given that 230V is more than enough to kill or do serious harm, what precautions would you take if you knew that 400V/415V PDs were present which you wouldn't take if you knew that the PDs present were 'only 230V'?

Kind Regards, John

 

[IJWS15]

I've no idea what the guy is going on about regarding the cables.

There is an unrelated potential issue I see which is that there is very little legitimate reason for having a 32A circuit with one double socket on it. Double sockets are NOT designed to run with both sides fully loaded. Depending on the situate having a 32A supply terminated in one double socket seems like asking people to overload that socket.

Seen this old wive's tale posted before - thought you guys were all into "read the manufacturer's instructions" see

http://www.mkelectric.com/Documents...pecifications/T02 LOGIC PLUS Tech 355-389.pdf

"Current rating:
13A per socket outlet
(except 3 gang which is 13 amp in total)"

The only way that makes sense is that a singe is 13A, a twin is 26A (2x13A) but a triple is only 13A, otherwise the note in brackets is not necessary as they would all be 13A.

 

[JohnW2]

Seen this old wive's tale posted before - thought you guys were all into "read the manufacturer's instructions" see
http://www.mkelectric.com/Documents...pecifications/T02 LOGIC PLUS Tech 355-389.pdf
"Current rating:
13A per socket outlet
(except 3 gang which is 13 amp in total)"
The only way that makes sense is that a singe is 13A, a twin is 26A (2x13A) but a triple is only 13A, otherwise the note in brackets is not necessary as they would all be 13A.

.
As has been discussed in those previous threads, what you say certainly makes sense. However, if you look back through those threads you will find somewhere that there is MK material out there indicating that continuous loads greater than (IIRC) 22A total can/do lead to damage to the socket. Coupled with the fact that BS1363 only requires a double socket to pass the temperature rise test at 20A total, this means that the situation is far from clear-cut. Even if MK double sockets were 'OK' at 26A, it is certainly possible to have a BS1363-compliant socket (of some other make) that that shows an 'unacceptable' temperature rise with total loads >20A.

Whatver the Standards and MIs say, I think that most of us are aware, from experience, that loads approaching 2 x 13A on a double socket do sometimes lead to problems - probably the most common situation being a washing machine and dryer plugged into one double socket.

As I've often said before, I personally think it is crazy that double sockets are allowed to exist which cannot safely/reliably cope with 26A loads (since that's what the great majority of the general public undoubtedly assume), but that's a different matter.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What percentage of EICRs carried out do you think the above could apply to...

Probably quite a few.

There are some out there which are only fit for toilet paper

And so it will remain until word gets round that customers are prepared to sue if you say something for which your justification is an incorrect understanding of the regulations.

 

[EFLImpudence]

"Current rating:
13A per socket outlet
(except 3 gang which is 13 amp in total)"

The only way that makes sense is that a singe is 13A, a twin is 26A (2x13A) but a triple is only 13A, otherwise the note in brackets is not necessary as they would all be 13A.

Triples have 13A fuse in them.