3 way light problem.

[HLDN2K]

Hi ran in a little issue which is bugging me and can’t think what I’ve done wrong. So in the hallway I’ve changed over the standard white ceiling rose lights to black ones. Was hoping the black cover would screw over the existing ceiling rose terminal but unfortunately it didn’t so had to use the new one which came with the light. Issue is, in the hall way there’s 1 light switch at the bottom of the hallway which controls both lights
and then a 3 way light switch which controls both hallway lights, landing light (top of stairs) and a outside security light. I never noticed this before but missus did, issue is in order for the outside light to work I need to put on the hallway light switch aswell. Does that sound right ? Just Incase I’ve not explained it very well, on the 3 way switch. Left one turns on landing light, middle switch is hallway lights and right switch controls the outside security light. Before I start changing wires over I thought I’d ask because there’s a lot of wires inside there ‍

 

[ericmark]

I have read your report a few times, and I can't work out exactly what has gone on, I think some of the problem is the description. This

is a three gang switch, it is unlikely you have a three-way switch, you may have a two-way switch and/or an intermediate switch, using two x two-way switches allows you to switch light from two places, and adding intermediate switches can allow as many switches as you want to operate the same light.

In the main, the ceiling rose doubles as a junction box, so not all the wires go to the bulb, and wire colours mean nothing.

Both these will work as two-way,

the first is the normal one used. I have not got two-way with intermediate to hand.

However, did the lights ever work independent?

I will guess someone has tried to wire an outside lamp from a switch where there is no neutral, in other countries they use the switch back box as a junction box, and this has also been done in this country when items designed for other countries are used.

 

[HLDN2K]

I have read your report a few times, and I can't work out exactly what has gone on, I think some of the problem is the description. This View attachment 372196 is a three gang switch, it is unlikely you have a three-way switch, you may have a two-way switch and/or an intermediate switch, using two x two-way switches allows you to switch light from two places, and adding intermediate switches can allow as many switches as you want to operate the same light.

In the main, the ceiling rose doubles as a junction box, so not all the wires go to the bulb, and wire colours mean nothing.

Both these will work as two-way, View attachment 372197View attachment 372198the first is the normal one used. I have not got two-way with intermediate to hand.

However, did the lights ever work independent?

I have read your report a few times, and I can't work out exactly what has gone on, I think some of the problem is the description. This View attachment 372196 is a three gang switch, it is unlikely you have a three-way switch, you may have a two-way switch and/or an intermediate switch, using two x two-way switches allows you to switch light from two places, and adding intermediate switches can allow as many switches as you want to operate the same light.

In the main, the ceiling rose doubles as a junction box, so not all the wires go to the bulb, and wire colours mean nothing.

Both these will work as two-way, View attachment 372197View attachment 372198the first is the normal one used. I have not got two-way with intermediate to hand.

However, did the lights ever work independent?

I will guess someone has tried to wire an outside lamp from a switch where there is no neutral, in other countries they use the switch back box as a junction box, and this has also been done in this country when items designed for other countries are used.

I will guess someone has tried to wire an outside lamp from a switch where there is no neutral, in other countries they use the switch back box as a junction box, and this has also been done in this country when items designed for other countries are used.

My bad. Yes it’s a 3 way gang switch like you have pictured. My missus said they did but to be honest it’s not something I ever paid attention to. To explain it in simple terms the middle switch which turns off / on the 2 hallway lights needs to be turned on if you want to use the outside light. Just don’t want it to potentially dangerous really so thought I’d ask on here before I end up paying someone to check it.

 

[RandomGrinch]

I will guess someone has tried to wire an outside lamp from a switch where there is no neutral,

You do seem to overcomplicate things sometimes!
I prefer the Occam's razor principle...

The OP has only changed the ceiling rose

I’ve changed over the standard white ceiling rose lights to black ones

And the issue is

in order for the outside light to work I need to put on the hallway light switch aswell.

Wouldn't that suggest that the permanent live wire leading on to the security light has mistakenly been connected to the switched live terminal at the ceiling rose, rather than the loop terminal?

 

[ebee]

Well in some countries they calls a 3 way switch instead of a two way switch (with 3 terminals) , it would all be simpler if all switches were intermediate type only (4 terminal crossover) then you could use it as a 1way or 2 way on intermediate then you could switch from one to infinity switches to change state of the light from lit to unlit.

We would probably still call vacuum cleaners "hoovers" and electrical insulation testers "Meggers" and a hoard of other things by the wrong name though.
It is a no win situation !

 

[ericmark]

Well in some countries they calls a 3 way switch instead of a two way switch (with 3 terminals)

I wonder what they call a real 3 way switch? As used to work lights on office busy, wait, enter etc? One can have 12 way switches, like the selector switch on a washing machine.

OK ceiling rose, our own wiki shows which is a good start, I did look for more and the use of an intermediate switch seems to be missing pictures. I will guess my internet is too slow.

 

[HLDN2K]

You do seem to overcomplicate things sometimes!
I prefer the Occam's razor principle...

The OP has only changed the ceiling rose

And the issue is

Wouldn't that suggest that the permanent live wire leading on to the security light has mistakenly been connected to the switched live terminal at the ceiling rose, rather than the loop terminal?

I looked at the light again, there’s 4 neural wires which are screwed into the neutral terminal. 3 live wires which are in the loop and on the live terminal there’s 2 live wires. I’ve tried putting each of the 2 lives into the loop, one at a time but on one occasion the outside light worked via the switch but the hall lights wouldn’t. I’ve since put it back how it was so atleast the hallway lights are working. I took a picture of the ceiling rose when I changed it over but has since been deleted to my despair. I’m 95% sure it’s been put back how it was..think it could be time to contact an electrician

 

[EFLImpudence]

. I never noticed this before but missus did, issue is in order for the outside light to work I need to put on the hallway light switch aswell. Does that sound right ?

It might be, so that you don't leave the outside light on all night - assuming you might not see it.

I’ve tried putting each of the 2 lives into the loop, one at a time but on one occasion the outside light worked via the switch but the hall lights wouldn’t.

I suppose you had the other red still connected.

What happened when you put that red in the loop?

 

[HLDN2K]

It might be, so that you don't leave the outside light on all night - assuming you might not see it.



I suppose you had the other red still connected.

What happened when you put that red in the loop?

On one occasion one hall light would switch off and on but the other one stayed permanently on. The other way I tried none of the hallway lights worked but the outside light switched off and on

 

[ebee]

. I never noticed this before but missus did, issue is in order for the outside light to work I need to put on the hallway light switch aswell. Does that sound right ?

It might be, so that you don't leave the outside light on all night - assuming you might not see it.

I have been known to do that deliberately with a loft light.
Householder puts landing/stairway light on and goes up step ladder. opens loft hatch and reaches inside for loft light switch.
Climbing out switches loft light up and replace the hatch as stepping down, OK. But often gets down steps and realises they left the loft light on, if the had done the then the loft light would not remain permanently on for the next 5 years but only on if the landing light is actually on.
Can be a benefit in some cases.

 

[HLDN2K]

It might be, so that you don't leave the outside light on all night - assuming you might not see it.

I have been known to do that deliberately with a loft light.
Householder puts landing/stairway light on and goes up step ladder. opens loft hatch and reaches inside for loft light switch.
Climbing out switches loft light up and replace the hatch as stepping down, OK. But often gets down steps and realises they left the loft light on, if the had done the then the loft light would not remain permanently on for the next 5 years but only on if the landing light is actually on.
Can be a benefit in some cases.

I wouldn’t have thought nothing of it until the missus mentioned it a week later. Of course by that time the picture was deleted as I thought it was working as it should. I’m assuming it’s safe to leave as it is then ?

 

[ebee]

Whatever works best for your lifestyle, pros and cons either way. Providing all lights are safe in all other circumstances then it`s up to you which works best for you.

 

[SUNRAY]

You say you changed 2 lights but only described one set of connexions.

 

[JohnW2]

Well in some countries they calls a 3 way switch instead of a two way switch (with 3 terminals) , it would all be simpler if all switches were intermediate type only (4 terminal crossover) then you could use it as a 1way or 2 way on intermediate then you could switch from one to infinity switches to change state of the light from lit to unlit.

That's all very true but, as eric has pointed out, I think we're talking about a 3-gang switch, not a "3-way" one.

Kind Regards, John