400kW charger - how many of these on a typical local network ?

[bernardgreen]

Water hydraulic power was very common in docks for operating cranes and other heavy machinery. This tower at Grimsby

More information:
Grimsby Dock Tower is a hydraulic accumulator tower and a famous maritime landmark in Grimsby, North East Lincolnshire, England. It was completed on 27 March 1852 with the purpose of containing a 30,000 UK gallon (136 m³) hydraulic wrought iron reservoir at a height of 200 feet (61 m), that was used to provide hydraulic power (rather than a supply of water) to the lock gates and cranes of Grimsby Docks.[1] The extreme height of the tower was necessary to achieve sufficient pressure. Water towers for water supply purposes don't need anything approaching this height

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Water hydraulic power was very common in docks for operating cranes and other heavy machinery. This tower at Grimsby

Back in the 1980's I installed a pumping station on the dock, close to that impressive tower.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The difference is the range of liquid fuel is much greater

Not always.

It is true that many EVs have a very short range, but it is equally true that some have in excess of 300 miles, so clearly it is possible to build EVs which are acceptable in that respect.

and refuelling is the work of minutes.

Yes, and that's an issue of great importance wrt public charging stations which people will use to recharge vehicles part way through a journey.

But it is of no relevance to the question I asked, which so far nobody has even tried to answer:

If people had a pipe delivering petrol or diseasel to their homes so they could top their tank up every night how many would need to refill elsewhere, and how often?

It is a mistake to think that we will need to replace the energy-transfer capacity currently provided by filling stations with an EV charging equivalent. Not everybody (I suspect very few) drives more than 300 miles per day very often.

The more the number of electric vehicles there are, the greater the demand on the network will be. If everyone were to buy electric, then there could never be the capacity to charge them, without massive improvements in generation and distribution infrastructure. How are those with no drive, who have to park on street going to recharge their vehicles?

All valid concerns.

Sooner or later, two things will have to happen:

1. The cost of electricity for EV charging will have to be hiked in order to both replace the government revenue currently raised by fuel duties and to fund infrastructure expansion (as an aside, two things which would dovetail much more neatly were the infrastructure to be publicly owned).
2. A wholesale move to EVs will have to be accompanied by a different model of car ownership and use.

 

[bernardgreen]

The answer is simple ... wireless charging

Induction loops all along the high ways

sensors switch on only those loops that have a vehicle above them so no energy is wasted powering "empty loops"

 

[ivixor]

For home charging you will see homeowners fitting a variety of devices to generate electricity for free or cheap.

The trouble is that the most practical way to generate electricity at home is solar, and most cars are away from the house during the day. So home power banks will be needed which charge during the day, and then empty into the car overnight.

As for charging on the move, I think replaceable batteries will become more popular. As EV's become commoditised batteries will become standardised and able to be swapped between vehicles easily. You can imagine that a car will have 50% of it's capacity integrated, and 50% of it swappable, through easily replaceable modules.

These replaceable modules can be kept at charging stations and also charged overnight to reduce spikes on the network during times of high traffic. They can also be charged at home.

That will need a rather different design of cars to existing EV's which tend to integrate the battery into the car's structure.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Sooner or later, two things will have to happen:

1. The cost of electricity for EV charging will have to be hiked in order to both replace the government revenue currently raised by fuel duties and to fund infrastructure expansion (as an aside, two things which would dovetail much more neatly were the infrastructure to be publicly owned).
2. A wholesale move to EVs will have to be accompanied by a different model of car ownership and use.

It doen't need minor tweaks of electrical infrastructure, it would need several orders of magnitude changes, it would be an impossible goal to achieve. Car engines output around 85Kw - think of all of those 85Kw engines, being replaced by central generation and distribution schemes. How about everyone has an 85Kw generator running in their back garden? How about every village has a 1Mw central generator to cope with the load? Wind and solar cannot possibly cope - nuclear might, but then there is still the distribution problem, getting the power to where it is needed.

I fully agree with your point 2. Cars would have to be community/public ownership, where you just text to request a driverless car to collect you from your door, when you need one, no streets jammed with parked cars, all would be either parked out of town on charge, or on route to collect/ drop someone off. No more selfish driving just for the pleasure of driving and I count myself amongst the selfish.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It doen't need minor tweaks of electrical infrastructure, it would need several orders of magnitude changes, it would be an impossible goal to achieve. Car engines output around 85Kw - think of all of those 85Kw engines, being replaced by central generation and distribution schemes. How about everyone has an 85Kw generator running in their back garden? How about every village has a 1Mw central generator to cope with the load? Wind and solar cannot possibly cope - nuclear might, but then there is still the distribution problem, getting the power to where it is needed.

How about you coming to understand the difference between kW and kWh?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

How about you coming to understand the difference between kW and kWh?

I well understand the difference, thank you - but the numbers just do not add up.

 

[ivixor]

Yes, that's kind of the principle of a battery.

Also the car is not using 85kw constantly, it only is at full power for a tiny fraction of the time it is running.

An EV has a battery pack in the order of 60kwh. So ignoring inefficiencies, to charge a 60kwh battery from empty would require 3 kw for 15 hours. Or 6kw for 7.5 hours. Or 12kw for 3.7 hours.

3kw is a fan heater. 6kw is an electric oven. 12kw is just a bit more than an electric shower.

All easily achievable given existing infrastructure, although more generation will be needed.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

All easily achievable given existing infrastructure, although more generation will be needed.

That is where we will have to agree to differ, it will not need just more, it will need much, much more. There are not just cars on the road, there are many large trucks, buses and trains, all needed their charge at similar times. Do we exempt generation from burning fossil fuels? What about the big polluters like aircraft and ships?

 

[JohnW2]

3kw is a fan heater. 6kw is an electric oven. 12kw is just a bit more than an electric shower. ... All easily achievable given existing infrastructure, although more generation will be needed.

I'm not so sure how 'easily achievable' it would be if millions of people simultaneously ran additional fan heaters, ovens or showers in addition to whatever electricity usage they already have.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

A lot of energy is wasted in the distribution of power from power station to end user.

When electricity was first introduced to the general public it came from local power stations often sited in the centre of town and burning coal. One reason for setting up a national electrical grid network was to have the abilty to burn coal in powere stations located away from towns and thus remove the pollution of power stations burning coal close to towns.

Gas powered power stations are far less polluting than coal burning stations. There could be some merit in having gas powered power stations closer to the areas of population and thus reduce the losses in transmission from power station to end user. With the losses in tranmission the amount of gas burnt would be less overall.

All easily achievable given existing infrastructure,

New built All electric housing ( no gas supply permitted ) and the increasing demands for vehicle battery charging are seen as problems for the electricity supply industry. Some in that industry say off record that a solution to these problems is going to be very difficult if not impossible to acheive in a financial viable way.

 

[JohnD]

I'm not so sure how 'easily achievable' it would be if millions of people simultaneously ran additional fan heaters, ovens or showers in addition to whatever electricity usage they already have.

Kind Regards, John

Perhaps somebody will invent a way of load-sharing that can deal with short-term high loads by temporarily reducing or interrupting longer-lasting ones. like a battery charger, or a storage heater, or immersion, for example. maybe it could be done by an electricity meter with added smartness.

 

[ivixor]

If someone told you vehicles in the UK would need 3.9 billion litres of highly explosive liquid shipped to over 8000 filling stations every *month* - now that sounds difficult. Coping with an increase in demand for electricity is trivial in comparison.

 

[ivixor]

Perhaps somebody will invent a way of load-sharing that can deal with short-term high loads by temporarily reducing or interrupting longer-lasting ones. like a battery charger, or a storage heater, or immersion, for example. maybe it could be done by an electricity meter with added smartness.

That's really the definition of a smart grid. The real point of smart meters is load prediction and automatic load shedding, not billing and certainly not to let homeowners see how much they are using.