Or to put it more simply Eric, we have about half the rate of electrical 'incidents' in the UK compared to the average across Europe.
A few random questions, if you will..
- Thread starter cjard
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and herems me thinking radials were "new and new is better" than the old ring.. should i be asking for rings in my new build hwith the exception of some high power radials to the kitchen)
any thoughts on the other queries raised, particularly the service voids one? thanks!
any thoughts on the other queries raised, particularly the service voids one? thanks!
If you run the cables in a void filled with insulation you'll have to derate the current carrying capacity. OTOH, if you cut into the Celotex you'll reduce its insulating properties.
Radials are in no sense 'new' - originally, that's all we had, and had it not been for WWII (and the consequential apparent shortage of copper etc.) , we would never have got rings.
As has been said, although still widely used, the arguments for having rings do not really stand up to much examination. In function terms, there is certainly nothing that can b achieved with rings which can't also be achieved with radials.
Kind Regards, John
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True, if you duplicate the CPC.
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Actually: ' I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest. '
Sounds a bit too much like "We're racist and that's the way we like it" for a modern audience!
In viw of what you recently wrote, suspected that you might say that! I'm not convinced that achieving redundancy of CPCs is, in itself, an adequate reason for using ring finals. Let's face it, we're only talking about sockets circuits - everything else (lighting, cookers, showers, immersions, outbuildings etc.) is wired with radials, and I've never heard anyone suggest that we should duplicate their CPCs!
Kind Regards, John
That's true. Perhaps we should?
Perhaps we should - and whilst we're at it, perhaps we should also duplicate RCDs, maybe MCBs/fuses and even maybe isolating switches!
In the case of CPCs, if they were to be duplicated for all the non-sockets circuits, it would make sense for it to be required for the 'duplicate CPC' to be separate from the primary one, and exactly the same could be done with a radial sockets circuit - so no really a reason for having ring finals rather than radial sockets circuits!
Kind Regards, John
True.. Now I wasn't thinking of filling all the void with insulation but I'd definitely consider horizontal battens top and bottom of the wiring void to break up the vertical runs, and insulate the verticals
Cello text could take the hit. Overall the wall will probably have 140mm of wool and 75mm of celo so if I lose 20 mm in a smal spot it'll be fine er.
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We have four common systems.
1) 4mm² or 6mm² radial still uses a 32A MCB but since with many sockets you can't get a third cable in it's hard to expand on with spurs being physical impossible to fit although they are allowed.
2) 2.5mm radial often limited to 16 or 20 amp MCB was favoured for a time when computers were tripping RCD's it allows each room to have it's own supply but clearly the consumer unit needs to be larger and the cost goes up.
3) The ring already talked about that.
4) Conductors in parallel often called a ring but really it is using 2 x 2.5mm² cables to feed a grid switch simply as you can't get a 4mm² cable into the switches plus link to next switch. Common in a kitchen a row of switches which isolate hidden switches for washing machine, tumble drier, dish washer, and fridge freezer. Often called the kitchen ring.
The latter points out one major problem with our system. The terminals in 13A sockets will often only take 3 x 2.5mm² cables. OK I know MK have bigger terminals but it is the physical cable size which means we are really stuck with the ring.
When my mother had new kitchen a sub-consumer unit was used so there is no need for grid switches to remotely isolate hidden sockets. Back in 2000 I would have said the isolator was really required. But today washing machines have auto shut down if they start to dance so it's not so important. However my mothers freezer has a dial Hi-Med-Low-Off but in real terms it will not switch off unless switched off at the plug so maybe there is still a place for the grid switch?
1) 4mm² or 6mm² radial still uses a 32A MCB but since with many sockets you can't get a third cable in it's hard to expand on with spurs being physical impossible to fit although they are allowed.
2) 2.5mm radial often limited to 16 or 20 amp MCB was favoured for a time when computers were tripping RCD's it allows each room to have it's own supply but clearly the consumer unit needs to be larger and the cost goes up.
3) The ring already talked about that.
4) Conductors in parallel often called a ring but really it is using 2 x 2.5mm² cables to feed a grid switch simply as you can't get a 4mm² cable into the switches plus link to next switch. Common in a kitchen a row of switches which isolate hidden switches for washing machine, tumble drier, dish washer, and fridge freezer. Often called the kitchen ring.
The latter points out one major problem with our system. The terminals in 13A sockets will often only take 3 x 2.5mm² cables. OK I know MK have bigger terminals but it is the physical cable size which means we are really stuck with the ring.
When my mother had new kitchen a sub-consumer unit was used so there is no need for grid switches to remotely isolate hidden sockets. Back in 2000 I would have said the isolator was really required. But today washing machines have auto shut down if they start to dance so it's not so important. However my mothers freezer has a dial Hi-Med-Low-Off but in real terms it will not switch off unless switched off at the plug so maybe there is still a place for the grid switch?
We has a semi built in 1952 when there was a timber shortage but should have been at the height of any copper shortage caused by the war.
It was wired with radials - 15A radials with one socket per radial, most of the 15A sockets had been swopped for 13A.
Was the copper shortage really the cause? THere was far more copper in the piping!
Goodness knows - I suspect the 'shortage', if there was one, was more due to high demand than low supply. I think it was well after the 50s that I first saw any copper pipe in domestic plumbing.
If it was originally wired with 15A sockets, it obviously could not have been wired as a ring - ring finals have (for fairly obvious reasons) only ever been allowed with BS1363 sockets.
Kind Regards, John
One socket per radial? there must have been boatload of wire in that house then.. probably couldn't move under the stairs for wires leaving the fuseboard?
So, on the topic of my sockets - let's say I want 10 sockets in the lounge, all at 1200mm (i'm really tall, and care more for my back than the aesthetics of the wall - i'm hoping flush finished paintable face sockets are available anyway) off the floor. Should I install the service void battens so that I've a clear horizontal channel the height of a socket box, at 1200 and have the wires run round the room horizontally, or should I loop them up and down the wall?
So, on the topic of my sockets - let's say I want 10 sockets in the lounge, all at 1200mm (i'm really tall, and care more for my back than the aesthetics of the wall - i'm hoping flush finished paintable face sockets are available anyway) off the floor. Should I install the service void battens so that I've a clear horizontal channel the height of a socket box, at 1200 and have the wires run round the room horizontally, or should I loop them up and down the wall?
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