A little help with window protection......

[Yorkshirebloke]

Hello all.
Ok, been struggling with this for a good few weeks now. I've read so much stuff about this, but there is such a lot of conflicting advice I'm hoping you guys can put this to bed for me.

I've got 2 windows in my lounge (pic below) that I'm trying to decide how to alarm.
The easiest way would be to fit a pir but due to us having a dog in the near future it seems even the pet friendly dual techs aren't really recommended.

Now if we fit shock sensors, as there is 6 panels it will end up costing quite a lot and there will be a fair amount of wires to then run to each panel. If this is the best way to do it, well so be it I guess that will have to be the way it's done.

So other options..... with a glass break sensor mounted above each window, or possibly on the roof between the 2 windows. But are they any good? If they are, is there a good make of one I should buy?
Otherwise, what about beam sensors? Couldn't find much info online about them.

Thanks as always everyone, I'm sorry if this is a bit of a boring topic. Lol.

Alex

 

[secureiam]

Hmm,

I am not a fan of pet friendly detectors, mainly because they mainly be cutting out detection below a certain level around 4ft mark, kids and vertically challenged or crawlers wont necessarily activate the alarm.
Glass breaks rely on a thump then the glass breaking for it to activate, so not a big fan of these either, given some of the breakins I have seen there was no thump before the glass was broken.

The question comes to where your pet is going to roam when the alarm is set during the day and on a night.

As for shock sensors, the new wireless Texecom Micro shocks are fantastic and could be stuck to the frame, or inside the window frame, but these wouldn't be as cheap hard wired shocks, but they aren't as bulky either.

On the bay window you may need more than one shock, the other window you may get away with just one., centrally placed along the top, but its hard to be certain without checking as part of a site survey, sensitivity of the shocks can be adjusted.

You don't state what alarm you have already if any and have asked about one room only which seems strange as bedsits are usually 1 room and houses multipul rooms?

 

[Yorkshirebloke]

Hello buddy, thanks for the reply

Ok so the alarm.... don't have one at the minute. I'm thinking the Texecom premier elite 24 (metal) at the moment but I'm also open to ideas on that too.
I was going for wired, mainly because it seems it's a much more stable system, and I have 80% of the floors up in the house doing a complete remodel so now seems a good time to run the wires. I've bought 8 core CQR cable so far and laid a few runs from the doors to where the alarm panel will be on the wall in the adjoining garage.
I was going for this alarm because it seems most people hadn't got a bad word to say about it, I like the idea of the prox keys and using the connect module/plugin I can monitor it and get alarm notifications. Again, if anyone's got any other ideas.... I'm all ears!

I've only really asked about those windows as it is sort of the only ones giving me grief. They are the lounge windows. Upstairs will have one window that needs protecting, but it's at the top of the landing so could be covered by a PIR at each end. (Dog won't be allowed upstairs)
The rest of the house to protect is;
Front door, side door into garage, double doors into conservatory (not going to bother arming the conservatory at all), double patio doors to garden.
Then there's 2 other windows, one in the kitchen and one in the utility room to protect, but I had figured i would follow suit with whatever was suggested for the lounge windows.
The dog will have complete freedom of the downstairs. It's a personal preference thing, I just don't like shutting them in as such.

So basically you suggest that pet friendly PIRs are basically ruled out (as had I, as most people don't think too much of them) and the glass break sensors arent too good either. So i guess it means im left with shock sensors by way of elimination lol

Thanks again!
Alex

 

[secureiam]

always better to hardwire rather than wireless if you can, you have good brand cable wise so that's one less thing to worry about.

My entry level panel is the 48 metal or 64W for installs, this gives more flexibility.

The biggest issue with wireless systems is radio jamming and during a jam the wireless devices are defunct, but its not quite as straight forward as that, as its possible during radio jamming that some wireless devices will work, if they fit into a slot where the jamming doesn't coincide with a signal from the device.

Hybrid systems is a good compromise, in you can protect the home with hardwired devices where its easy to do so and wireless for those harder to reach places.

I know a few people swear by certain pet wise detectors as being good, bosch tritech and more recently Orisec petwise detector I have had on test in a property has proven to be okay but they don't sell to GP, but again the customer has it in a place where the petwise sensor is compromised by kitchen units where the cats love to jump up on. but the rest of the house is on AMQD's and the cats don't activate the sensors at all because the sensors don't face curtains or places where they will get above the activation height. so if a sofa is near the wall the pir is facing away from, the cats in many cases can jump up on the sofa and not be detected, if you look at pir coverage patterns it may make more sense to you.

Now for the biggest shock of all, if the dog is a small bread, ie doesn't get much bigger than the average domestic cat, normal PIR's can be used with relatively reliably, what you do have to be aware of is the size of the animal and whether it will jump or climb onto surfaces.

So a petwise sensor facing the stairs a cat would be picked up around when it gets above a certain step usually around 1.2M high on a normal detector its much lower than this, however you can adjust the height of many sensors to increase this distance a little.

without knowing the type of dog, and a full survey I would look at perimeter shocks wireless (just wired shocks on windows can look messy plus invalidate warranties if screwed into new frames and normal PIR sensors in the rooms, and look at possibly manually masking the lens or look at Pet wise sensors at the most at risk areas for the pet to activate the alarm.

I guess this is what you pay an alarm engineer for to work out best placement and devices, rather than second guess whats appropriate.

CAUTION: if using shock sensors on the perimeter and no pir coverage every door and window needs to be covered as no device on a window or door means once there are in the property they wont activate the alarm!!!!

 

[Nintendofan]

Just to add my experience of pet detectors.

I have 2 Bosch Pet Tritech's fitted in a largish kitchen/dinner. My dog gets locked in the kitchen during the day but would continually set off the alarm even though they're fitted correctly. The dog is a young 20kg overactive Springer Spaniel.

The work around I had to implement was to put both PIR's on a long double knock via the Premier Elite 24 panel. I check the system logs now and again and I regularly see '1st knocks' where the PIR has detected the dog again.

 

[secureiam]

did you ever setup a camera to see what he was doing when you got the first knock.

kitchens are nightmares as jumping up onto things(cats more than dogs usually) or standing on hind legs against a table or chair or against units.(dogs more than cats usually).

Think our cats are under 5Kg, and spend much time outdoors much smaller than the dog here, had a look on a pet health site and a Yorkshire Terrier is a similar weight.

The cats probably aren't as active either, I know we can have a cat with free roam and they don't move off the bed all day, most days.

 

[Yorkshirebloke]

always better to hardwire rather than wireless if you can, you have good brand cable wise so that's one less thing to worry about.

My entry level panel is the 48 metal or 64W for installs, this gives more flexibility.

The biggest issue with wireless systems is radio jamming and during a jam the wireless devices are defunct, but its not quite as straight forward as that, as its possible during radio jamming that some wireless devices will work, if they fit into a slot where the jamming doesn't coincide with a signal from the device.

Hybrid systems is a good compromise, in you can protect the home with hardwired devices where its easy to do so and wireless for those harder to reach places.

I know a few people swear by certain pet wise detectors as being good, bosch tritech and more recently Orisec petwise detector I have had on test in a property has proven to be okay but they don't sell to GP, but again the customer has it in a place where the petwise sensor is compromised by kitchen units where the cats love to jump up on. but the rest of the house is on AMQD's and the cats don't activate the sensors at all because the sensors don't face curtains or places where they will get above the activation height. so if a sofa is near the wall the pir is facing away from, the cats in many cases can jump up on the sofa and not be detected, if you look at pir coverage patterns it may make more sense to you.

Now for the biggest shock of all, if the dog is a small bread, ie doesn't get much bigger than the average domestic cat, normal PIR's can be used with relatively reliably, what you do have to be aware of is the size of the animal and whether it will jump or climb onto surfaces.

So a petwise sensor facing the stairs a cat would be picked up around when it gets above a certain step usually around 1.2M high on a normal detector its much lower than this, however you can adjust the height of many sensors to increase this distance a little.

without knowing the type of dog, and a full survey I would look at perimeter shocks wireless (just wired shocks on windows can look messy plus invalidate warranties if screwed into new frames and normal PIR sensors in the rooms, and look at possibly manually masking the lens or look at Pet wise sensors at the most at risk areas for the pet to activate the alarm.

I guess this is what you pay an alarm engineer for to work out best placement and devices, rather than second guess whats appropriate.

CAUTION: if using shock sensors on the perimeter and no pir coverage every door and window needs to be covered as no device on a window or door means once there are in the property they wont activate the alarm!!!!

Ok, so the texecom 48 will be on the list, it's hardly much extra so as you say, could make expansion easier later on.
The dog we don't have yet, but will be a Labrador (it needs a home having not quite passed it's exams) and we will give it free run of the downstairs. Now the trouble with labs is they like a good feed so they can get to being quite chunky. Also as you can see from the bay window, despite trying to discourage it, I will bet someone walking up the drive or a knock at the door will have it on its hind legs up at the bay window sill barking. So again, sadly, I think any PIRs are out.
Every door will have door contacts on, wired is dead easy as the floorboards are up in most places so I can run the cables to them and mount the contacts at the bottom of the doors neatly and keep the cable on site to an absolute minimum.
As for the windows, I am prepared if you think it's worth it, to channel conduit into the walls up to the windows to run wires. IF you think it's worth it. If not, wireless is fine. The window sills on both windows and in the kitchen will be coming out and replaced, so I could spend some time hiding the cable if again you think wired is better than wireless.

As for the alarm engineer...... whilst I appreciate exactly what you're saying, if I'm brutally honest, I don't trust 'tradesmen'. I appreciate on here there seems to be some really good guys and gals who clearly are worthy of the title trades people, but this house we bought in October of last year looks like the worst DIY house ever...... and as I have nearly every receipt for everything the previous owner had done (retired reverend - now passed away) and I have spoken to our lovely neighbours we knkw that he has done absokuteky nothing himself. Everything in this house has been done by trades people. And they have ripped him off. It's embarrassing in fact.
I go the gym with a lot of trades people too.... and i'd say 50% of em can barely the their shoe laces. Haha.

Also whilst it would be nice to have an installer come and do it, i love the research into projects, and I love the sense of satisfaction you get when you finish it yourself. I used to build cars for a living, I think I'm just one of those hands on sorts

 

[secureiam]

Your in a great position to rip channels in walls, that's your choice.

With the likes of the ricochet wireless micro shocks/contacts you can stick them on or inside the frames, I have my office window and doors with them on and you cant see them at all, the wireless shocks are easier to adjust than there hard wired equivalents. There is a guideline in the manual for the type of fitting and the sensitivity selection is brilliant. I recommend them to all my customers, if the windows and doors are new, they can be stuck on securely with the double sided sticky that's provided, if you later want to screw them on then its easier enough. The hard wired units are so bulk in comparison and have to be screwed on to get best results.
Maybe price it up and look at the dimensions of the devices and make your decision, hardwired is always considered better than wireless, for a start no batteries to replace, but hardwired devices haven't really changed much is shape or design, 8 core cable is probably thicker than the micro contacts.

no comment about shoelaces.

Trades people come in all shapes and sizes and unfortunately some leave their customers in a mess and some look after them too well, I see it all too often unfortunately.

 

[Yorkshirebloke]

Indeed. There's definitely good and bad out there, it's just finding the good that's the issue.
We've never had an alarm on our houses, so I've never had to find an installer or have any work done on them, so I figured as we we're in a mess on the house now's as good a time as any for me to put my own in.

Ok, I shall have a read of the wireless ricochet sensors. How many would you suggest I need for those windows? The bay window is made up of 2 opening ones (the smaller ones on the angle) and the large fixed one in the middle. The other window is 3 fixed panels as you can see.
I'm presuming a shock/contact sensor on the 2 openers, and a shock sensor on the big fixed pane.
Then one shock sensor in the middle pane of the other window? Is that right?

Thanks again for all the help, it's so nice having really knowledgeable people to turn to

Alex

 

[secureiam]

Hmm,

in general it depends on how much the vibration travels along the frame, old sash windows vibration travels well usually and they rattle in the wind, so have to dumb down the sensitivity to stop false alarms.

The advantage of wireless, is you could test and see what you get and more without worrying about running new cables.

so I would go around thumping windows with the bottom of my fist to see how much the vibration travels, this is a guide only mind.

That's where I would look at starting, you would be surprised how the vibrations travel on the large windows.

We had a window taken out that was fitted by a well known national firm and it appeared to be fixed in with the bare minimum of fixings, the lad that replaced the window put in very long screws and way more than double that was in the original window from what I remember, the window frame was also slightly bigger than the original no air gaps as such, I am guessing he measured it tighter than the national firm did, who used cladding to cover the somewhat large gaps between frame and wall. this window doesn't carry vibration as well as the one it replaced, because in my opinion its better fitted.

 

[Yorkshirebloke]

I see what you're saying. I guess that's the benefit of wireless isn't it, fitting extra is minutes work.
Think I need to do a smidge more reading then on the ricochet sensors.

On a slightly different tac..... double upvc doors..... do they need only one contact fitting (Top or bottom) on the first opening door as all of mine require one side to open before the other side will open? Or should I arm both doors?

Thanks again matey, I owe you a pint!

Alex

 

[secureiam]

Well for me I would have a shock on the doors (centrally) so if any starts giving a kicking it will go off and at least one contact to make sure you have shut the door, assuming that's not your exit route.

Depends on how the double doors work exactly. from what your saying you have to open one door to open the other, and I suspect if both doors are open you need to put the doors back in reverse order to close/ lock, in which case one contact/ one shock should be adequate. with preference being to the first opening side.

the only issue is if the door you open first can be closed/ locked with the other door open, without seeing your doors behaviour and the gaps involved I can't be 100% certain. Usually one device is enough as contact and one shock. Hardwired some have both contact and shock built in the device, Texecom have hardwired units that do both and the wireless impact plus does both but its bulky, they are however testing a shock and contact as part of there micro ricochet range (according to their tech support tester) I am told but don't know how close that is to release.

 

[Yorkshirebloke]

Well for me I would have a shock on the doors (centrally) so if any starts giving a kicking it will go off and at least one contact to make sure you have shut the door, assuming that's not your exit route.

Depends on how the double doors work exactly. from what your saying you have to open one door to open the other, and I suspect if both doors are open you need to put the doors back in reverse order to close/ lock, in which case one contact/ one shock should be adequate. with preference being to the first opening side.

the only issue is if the door you open first can be closed/ locked with the other door open, without seeing your doors behaviour and the gaps involved I can't be 100% certain. Usually one device is enough as contact and one shock. Hardwired some have both contact and shock built in the device, Texecom have hardwired units that do both and the wireless impact plus does both but its bulky, they are however testing a shock and contact as part of there micro ricochet range (according to their tech support tester) I am told but don't know how close that is to release.

Yes that's exactly it, with one set of doors you have to open one before you can open the other which is why I'd figured I could perhaps just arm that one first opening door. The other double doors we have at the back have independant doors so ill have to have 2 contacts for them.

I guess at the end of the day there is no getting away from it, it's going to cost a good whack of money for the alarm and all the contacts, but I guess that is also the cost of piece of mind.

Now, where the neck have I put that spare grand........

Thank you so much for the help again pal, it really is appreciated I tell ya.

Alex

 

[secureiam]

work out what you need, give me a buzz and I'll see if I can advise on the best way to buy for you.

 

[Yorkshirebloke]

That's a very kind offer! Wouldn't half help!
Should I drop a list on here or drop you a PM?

Thank you so much. I'd be lost without this forum. Lol.

Alex