adjustable or short bottom entry cistern filler

[dorsetcharlie]

I've just had the toilet replaced and the new (bathstore) cistern 6 litre came with a plastic bottom filling float arrangement.

No waterhammer before, now with this new equilibrium type valve, a large nasty clunk when it shuts off. Bathstore technical very helpful and sent me a torbeck but still equilibrium type and still a nasty clunk.

Found out the plumber did not clip the pipes properly behind the now completed tiling etc, so apart from breaking this out... (very annoyed...)

Previous cistern old proper ball valve, never any problems, and no clunk or waterhammer because of a nice slow close...(not an equilibrium, in type valve). Have got pretty high mains pressure.

Plumber tried an Opella standard bottom entry old type ball valve but 1-2" too tall for the cistern! Googled to death to try to find an adjustable height/short alternative to the Opella, no luck.

Any advice at all - any explanations anywhere re equilibrium vs old style ball valves? Why change something that works perfectly well with something that has an instant shutoff which will cause waterhammer (regardless of whether pipes are firmly clipped - the surge pressure is still there you just don't get the pipes thumping but I assume you still get a nasty clunk).

thanks for listening!!

 

[Whitespirit66]

I believe this one from Toolstation is an Opella, and bottom entry adjustable.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plu...+Compact+Valve+Bottom+Entry/d20/sd2835/p37311

I have had problems with these, mainly in older houses which used to have low pressure gravity cold water, but had been converted to mains pressure. Unfortunately, the original pipes hidden throughout the house weren't over-secured when installed, as the plumbers designed them to cope with the low pressure flow.

Most Torbeck equalibrium valves such as yours can close off suddenly, leading to hammer. The only semi-satisfactory answer I have found, is to fit the lowest flow restrictor that comes with the valve. Unfortunately, this means that the cistern takes longer to refill, making 'double-flushes' a bit frustrating! Has a flow restrictor been fitted to yours?

Recently, another colleague told me that Opella are aware of these problems, and if you contact them , they will send you a part that overcomes sudden shut-off.

Alternatively, is there room in your cistern for a conventional float valve? They have adjustable arms, so should fit most cisterns. Approx 4 quid at Screwfix, so worth a try!

 

[dorsetcharlie]

Hi whitespirit66, thanks for the reply.

The torbeck that bathstore sent me has a small upside down cup on an arm rather than a upside down cup in the filer stem as was supplied with the cistern. Both, as I understand are equilibrium types which have an instantaneous shut off.

The toolstation link looks similar to the filler stem that was originally supplied with a built in cup in the stem.

There is room for a conventional/traditional float valve arm with the big ball on the end but this is what the plumber tried to fit to allow a slow close but the problem was that the filler stem the conventional ball valve arm fixes to (both standard Opella stuff apparently) was too tall for the cistern and has no adjustment. What I am looking for is either an adjustable height vertical filler stem or a shorter one than the standard Opella stem so the conventional ball valve can be fitted. I'm about to phone round the local plumbers merchants to see if they have any alternatives and check screwfix.

You don't know of any technical blurb anywhere that explains the difference between these equilibrium type closures and conventional valves do you - the plumber showed me the diferent seals/washers, old types are just a plain seal, the newer torbeck and siilar seem to have a sort of pin on the seal...

I'll also call Opella re the torbeck part.

Thanks

 

[dennyboy]

these ones are adjustable
http://nextday.diy.com/app/jsp/prod...s.+Also+available+with+a+European+3/8"+shank.

 

[dorsetcharlie]

Hi dennyboy,

Thanks for that - it is however similar to the original filler provided with the cistern and again uses an equilibrium type valve that has instantaneous shut off which will cause surge/waterhammer.

I've been in contact with opella and in line with another post on the forum somewhere (can't remember where now) Opella have a two part replacement cap to the torbeck filling valve which apparently assists in absorbing the waterhammer shock which they are sending to me free. They only send this out when people complain apparently which means that the clunk with instantaneous valves is recognised but not publicised...

If that does not work, apparently the standard Opella Delchem traditional diaphragm ball cock filler stem comes in 2 sizes, 8.5" and 9.5" and I'll try the shorter. If that does not work, it is removing all the tiling and taking out the basin and toilet and clipping all the pipes properly which the plumber should have done in the first place...

Cheers

 

[Rico99]

Dorset,

You say your supplied filler valve was similar to the "Fluidmaster" as posted by dennyboy.

Can honestly say may "similar" aint the same.

Fluidmaster are the mutts nuts and i have never had any kind of problem with them

Rico

 

[dorsetcharlie]

Hi Rico,

By similar I mean that the float is built into the stem as opposed onto an arm (lever forces and effect on closure speed etc) and that as far as I can tell from fluidmasters website it uses an instantaneous equilibrium valve closure versus a diaphragm valve which can close gradually with a an old fashioned ballcock.

Hence being a 'similar' instantaneous close it will have the same waterhammer effect. If I am wrong about the instantaneous equilibrium seal I'd welcome any advice.

Thanks

 

[Nige F]

I've just had the toilet replaced and the new (bathstore) cistern 6 litre came with a plastic bottom filling float arrangement.



Have got pretty high mains pressure.


thanks for listening!!

Pressure reducing valve on incoming main less than £25. ..

 

[dorsetcharlie]

NigeF,

Thanks for the suggestion, I have thought of that and discussed it with the plumber. Obviously it will help in reducing overall pressure but still won't stop the waterhammer, just make it less severe.

cheers