Anti-Syphopn or HepVO Trap?

[pozidrive]

Hello,

I am currently refitting/remodeling my secondary bathroom, previously it only contained a bath and sink.

In addition to a new sink and bath I am adding a toilet which will be connected to the existing 40mm waste pipe via a macerator.

This waste pipe joins the main waste from the bath at approx 1 meter from the bath trap. I am keen to avoid syphonage from the bath trap when the macerator operates.

There is no possibility of running a separate waste in to the soil stack from the macerator.

So would you recomend an anti syphon trap or a hepVO trap in this situation?

 

[John506]

I'm not sure if you should run soil waste into your bath waste pipes, usually the macerator waste pipe is done in condensate pipe and ran to the stack on its own. If you get a hepv0 valve there is no chance in your bath causing induced syphonage to your bath from your macerator.

But just think, if you get a blockage from your bath trap to the soil stack, you could have human excrement coming up the plug in your bath.

Can you not run the macerator waste in a different location to were the bath waste joins the stack, after all you are allowed to rised the waste up from the macerator 5 metres (someone correct me if I'm wrong) before running it along to the stack. This would solve your problems of syphonage alltogether

 

[electronicsuk]

Normally the bath and sink waste would run to the macerator and be pumped as well - anything else risks foul waste coming back through the bath and sink. If the entire 40mm run is downhill then you might get away with a HepVO trap, but if the waste is being pumped uphill then you absolutely need to take the sink/bath drain into the macerator.

 

[seco services]

Macerator must run to the soil stack not to another appliance waste pipe.

 

[pozidrive]

Macerator must run to the soil stack not to another appliance waste pipe.

Ok so it looks like I now have to not only take up the bathroom floorboards but the ones in my daughters bedroom and our bedroom plus the drilling of numerous joists and somehow get up to the equivalent on the 2nd floor to drill through the outside wall to join the soil stack as there is not enough room between the joists for drill and masonry core drill to do it from the inside.

What started off as a couple of weekends project.........

How about the use of a non return valve? Or is that a definite no. Building regs etc...

 

[Richard C]

plus the drilling of numerous joists

There are strict controls & Building Regulations governing where & by how much you can drill/notch joists;
http://www.eastdevon.gov.uk/bc-guidancenote7-notchingofjoists.pdf

How about the use of a non return valve? Or is that a definite no. Building regs etc...

Read & understand the Building Regs & what you can & cannot do before you go any further;
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADH_2002.pdf
Or call in someone who knows what they are doing!

 

[electronicsuk]

Macerator must run to the soil stack not to another appliance waste pipe.

Ok so it looks like I now have to not only take up the bathroom floorboards but the ones in my daughters bedroom and our bedroom plus the drilling of numerous joists and somehow get up to the equivalent on the 2nd floor to drill through the outside wall to join the soil stack as there is not enough room between the joists for drill and masonry core drill to do it from the inside.

I don't understand. It would surely be much easier to take your sink and shower waste into the macerator, along with foul waste from the toilet, which will then leave you with the existing 40mm waste connected directly to the stack. Into this you can then connect the outlet from the macerator. Or have I misunderstood the layout of your bathroom?

 

[pozidrive]

I don't understand. It would surely be much easier to take your sink and shower waste into the macerator, along with foul waste from the toilet, which will then leave you with the existing 40mm waste connected directly to the stack. Into this you can then connect the outlet from the macerator. Or have I misunderstood the layout of your bathroom?

The layout is as follows new bath on l/h wall and toilet and sink on opposite wall. Therefore the waste pipe from the bath would have to come out of the bath panel along the wall through a 90 degree bend then along the opposite wall to the bath before going through a hole in the vanity unit to join the macerator - That would look awful and it is so NOT going to happen!!!

There really is not any other way for the layout bathroom to be arranged as the adjacent wall has a very large low window and the bath height comes above the window sill.

 

[electronicsuk]

Can't you stud out the walls to be able to hide the pipework?

 

[Richard C]

That would look awful and it is so NOT going to happen!!! There really is not any other way for the layout bathroom to be arranged as the adjacent wall has a very large low window and the bath height comes above the window sill.

No one can wave a wand & “make it happen” for you, there is always “a way” but it might not be easy or very cheap, which is probably why there wasn’t a bog in there in the first place. If you’re not prepared to fork out the cash to do it properly, forget the additional bog & stick with the shower room; you could always buy a chemical loo & stick that in there.

 

[The Baker]

Would it be possible to run the mascerater flow verticly up and into the ceiling,

then carry on up maybe a couple of feet higher than ceiling level, and so have a slight fall across the building to where you want to drop it down?

Tim

 

[electronicsuk]

Would it be possible to run the mascerater flow verticly up and into the ceiling,

then carry on up maybe a couple of feet higher than ceiling level, and so have a slight fall across the building to where you want to drop it down?

You'd need to consult the manufacturer's instructions, but it sounds feasible.

 

[pozidrive]

plus the drilling of numerous joists

There are strict controls & Building Regulations governing where & by how much you can drill/notch joists;
http://www.eastdevon.gov.uk/bc-guidancenote7-notchingofjoists.pdf[/QUOTE]

Hence my original question....... and sarcastic answer regarding drilling joists

How about the use of a non return valve? Or is that a definite no. Building regs etc...

Read & understand the Building Regs & what you can & cannot do before you go any further;
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADH_2002.pdf
Or call in someone who knows what they are doing!

Or maybe I ask someone who knows rather than someone who's only apparent skill is to post web links.

And not even the correct links either.....

Try this one instead next time - http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/100312_app_doc_G_2010.pdf

A call to BC has established the following

Building Regulations: Part G permit the installation of a macerator only if there is access to a gravity discharging WC.
With the waste water from the toilet needing to go to a convenient foul water drain, therefore the shower/bath discharege pipe can be used but the installation of a non return valve on the pipe work of the bath/shower to stop the toilet water from returning up the drain of the shower/bath.

Building Regulations: Part P state that if an electrical installation involves running new cable work in a kitchen or bathroom, then it must be reported to Building Control and carried out by a competent person registered with the Electrical Regulating Authority, or checked by someone who is registered with them.

Comments like

No one can wave a wand & “make it happen” for you, there is always “a way” but it might not be easy or very cheap, which is probably why there wasn’t a bog in there in the first place. If you’re not prepared to fork out the cash to do it properly, forget the additional bog & stick with the shower room; you could always buy a chemical loo & stick that in there.

Are not at all helpful. I thought this was supposed to be a DIY resource forum not "let me pay someone else to do it for me" forum it appears that you may have joined the wrong site.
Who in their right mind would even suggest installing a chemical toilet in a house - Don't judge everyone else by your own level of incompetence.

So to rephrase the question would you recommend a anti-syphon or a hepVO trap to prevent the possibility of any syphonage occuring when the macerator operates?

 

[electronicsuk]

A call to BC has established the following

Building Regulations: Part G permit the installation of a macerator only if there is access to a gravity discharging WC.
With the waste water from the toilet needing to go to a convenient foul water drain, therefore the shower/bath discharege pipe can be used but the installation of a non return valve on the pipe work of the bath/shower to stop the toilet water from returning up the drain of the shower/bath.

Building Regulations: Part P state that if an electrical installation involves running new cable work in a kitchen or bathroom, then it must be reported to Building Control and carried out by a competent person registered with the Electrical Regulating Authority, or checked by someone who is registered with them.

...

So to rephrase the question would you recommend a anti-syphon or a hepVO trap to prevent the possibility of any syphonage occuring when the macerator operates?

While I'm aware of the requirements for at least one toilet whose waste isn't discharged via a macerator, I'm still a little uneasy about what you've been told via BC regarding the shower and sink wastes.

You keep mentioning siphonage throughout this post, but I don't think that's likely to be a problem. What could potentially occur is foul water coming back OUT of the sink and showers wastes, which is an order of magnitude worse than siphonage of the water seals from the traps when the toilet is flushed.

The non-return valve is normally incorporated as part of the macerator itself, hence the need to run sink and shower back to the macerator rather than into the discharge pipe. Whether or not the use of external valves is permitted by the manufacturer is another question, and you'd have to contact them to find out. I'm quite surprised it's permitted at all by the building regulations - what happens if you flush the toilet while the shower is running? Presumably the water in the shower waste starts to back up.

Certainly, if both manufacturer and LABC will allow it, you don't want to use an anti-syphon trap because, as discussed above, siphonage is not the problem, and said trap design will not prevent foul waste discharging in the wrong direction.

 

[Richard C]

Hence my original question....... and sarcastic answer regarding drilling joists

What’s sarcastic about posting you a link a link regarding permissible drilling of joists

Or maybe I ask someone who knows rather than someone who's only apparent skill is to post web links.

To say posting links is my only apparent skill is just laughable. The idea of the link is to be of assistance usually to people who either don’t know BR’s exist or don’t know where to look.

And not even the correct links either.....
Try this one instead next time - http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/100312_app_doc_G_2010.pdf

The link I posted to Part H is correct; part G covers provision of facilities but I’ll admit I was unaware that macerators were specifically mentioned in there so even I have learned something. If you knew Part G existed & where to look for it, why did you post in the first place; should you not have been able to answer your own questions!

A call to BC has established the following

Building Regulations: Part G permit the installation of a macerator only if there is access to a gravity discharging WC. With the waste water from the toilet needing to go to a convenient foul water drain, therefore the shower/bath discharege pipe can be used but the installation of a non return valve on the pipe work of the bath/shower to stop the toilet water from returning up the drain of the shower/bath.

Building Regulations: Part P state that if an electrical installation involves running new cable work in a kitchen or bathroom, then it must be reported to Building Control and carried out by a competent person registered with the Electrical Regulating Authority, or checked by someone who is registered with them.

Well it’s good to see your now doing some research of your own rather than making numpty assumptions & statements.

Comments like

No one can wave a wand & “make it happen” for you, there is always “a way” but it might not be easy or very cheap, which is probably why there wasn’t a bog in there in the first place. If you’re not prepared to fork out the cash to do it properly, forget the additional bog & stick with the shower room; you could always buy a chemical loo & stick that in there.

Are not at all helpful. I thought this was supposed to be a DIY resource forum not "let me pay someone else to do it for me" forum it appears that you may have joined the wrong site.

You right it wasn’t really helpful but you appear not to be listening to advice & sticking your head in the sand. As for joining the wrong forum, I’ve been around since 2005, I see you joined, erm, 3 days ago! My profile speaks for itself, I think it’s maybe you who have joined the wrong forum my friend.

Who in their right mind would even suggest installing a chemical toilet in a house - Don't judge everyone else by your own level of incompetence.

That’s not down to incompetence you idiot, it was meant to a tongue in cheek joke

So to rephrase the question would you recommend a anti-syphon or a hepVO trap to prevent the possibility of any syphonage occuring when the macerator operates?

Macerator must run to the soil stack not to another appliance waste pipe.

Please indicate where in Part G, Part H or in manufacturer’s installation instructions it says you can discharge a bath/shower etc into the pumped (pressure) side of a macerator? Bath/showers/sinks are connected to the low pressure side of the macerator which then pumps all waste directly to the discharge soil stack; check valves should be fitted to low level sanitary appliances such as shower trays & possibly a bath to prevent back flow but this is not the same as siphoning. Good luck if you plan on fitting your bath/sink to the pumped side of the macerator, it could lead to a very interesting & colourfull new décor in your bathroom.