Architects Fees

[nikm]

Dear Forum,

Hope someone can help with some advice about our Architect's fees.

We were planning to add a basement and an additional top floor to our small (commercial) building. We already had planning permission for this, but needed help with interior layouts. He said he would charge us initially on a time basis, then on a % basis (13%) - estimated building cost was £375,000.

Time basis fee was £10,500 (which perhaps we should have queried at the time). Then he charged us £9750 (20% of 13%) and is now asking for another £24,500 (50 % of 13%). This would make his total fee 15.8%.

But, the cheapest tender he got us was £575,000 - which now makes the whole prospect non-viable. If we pay his latest bill we will have paid him over £51,000 (inc vat) just for some internal layout design. He hasn't made any discount for the fact we already had planning permission.

Do these fees seem reasonable for this size of project (less than 2000 sq feet ) and also, whose fault is it that the tender is £200,000 over his estimated cost?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Kind regards,

NikM

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Do these fees seem reasonable for this size of project (less than 2000 sq feet ) and also, whose fault is it that the tender is £200,000 over his estimated cost?

They seem steep, it all depends what you've agreed to pay him and when, did you approach other architects? He must have produced more than just internal layouts to get tender prices from contractors? Come on, explain a bit more about what he's done for the money. For build costs such as those he should have employed (or advised you to) a quantity surveyor. Who told you £375,000? Why the hell did you agree to 13% anyway, thats madness.

 

[nikm]

Sorry!, here's more info: -

First Architect got us the planning permission and estimated the build costs at £200,000.

New Architect said he would charge on a time-basis first (which we assumed would be low as we already had planning permission) then 13 % of build cost, and estimated £375,000 for a 'high-spec' finish.

He got us permission to build a cupboard in the basement wall and found the strutural engineer, CDM, party wall etc - but we paid them ourselves directly . He must have prepared working/detailed drawings for the tenders but he didn't show us these. We have not seen or agreed to any internal finishes or materials He didn't show us any quotes from a quantity surveyor so we do not think he has used one .

He is now demanding the next payment - £24,500 plus VAT - which he says is now due, despite us not being happy with the tender. He always says that any changes we make will cost us extra. This is why we've looked more carefully at what he's done for the money.

First Architect's fees were 12% of build cost and our Architect for our house is charging 11% for our extension - so we thought 13% was normal(ish), but the first £10,500 is difficult to understand - as we already had planning permission.

Thanks,

NikM

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Blimey he's run rings round you, I'm sorry to say it but you've been very naive. Basically I'd tell him you'll meet him in court and you'll get the RIBA involved, tell him to inform his PI as well, he sounds like a con artist. You should be paying aroundabout approx 5% of build cost for detailed design and tendering nothing like 13%, you should also have seen the full tender package and should have been involved throughout the detailed design. BTW the larger the project the smaller the percentage of fees gets, not the other way round. I would have a good read through the documents here: http://www.architecture.com/TheRIBA/Organisation/Constitution/CodeofConduct.aspx then at least you should have an idea of what the process should have been like and you will begin to understand what he should or should not have done.

 

[alexhayes]

We work on 6-8% for detailed design to tender and that applies to 250k+ projects (rule of thumb). I`d say more like 10-12% below 250k.

As the Client you should have seen and approved any tender pack before its been issued.

Does not seem he has followed any QA procedures by cutting you out of the loop.

I`d want a list of all activites and associated hours against each (our Clients will ask for that)

Not an Architect, but Civil Engineers.

 

[amwc]

Hi,
There is also a difference between getting planning permission and drawing up detailed plans. Planning would only want to see a rough idea of what was required but once gained an arch. would develope these to working drawings. does seem very steep though. No wonder all arch.s roll up on site in astons and jags.

 

[nikm]

Thank you all very much for your help and advice.

Please forgive my ignorance but do the figures that you quote for detailed design/tendering of 5% and 6-8% cover all of the architectural work up to this stage (meetings, plans, planning permission etc)? Please could you also advise on an appropriate % for the final stage (site supervision/checking the builders) - for a project like ours?

I have seen Architect's break domestic projects down into 3 stages of about 3.5% (planning permission), 4% (detail drawings and tendering) and 3.5% (site supervision). Should we expect a similar split for our commercial project?

We have clearly not looked carefully enough at our Architect's fees and have been incredibly naive in not checking whether they were reasonable before instructing him.

We have already paid him over £23,000 (inc vat) for what he has done and he still wants another £28,000 - despite the fact that a single brick hasn't been laid! Because of the first £10,500 we paid on a 'time-charge' basis if we stuck with him we would end up paying him nearly 16%, on a project we already had planning permission on.

We will definitely follow your advice and refuse to pay any more, as he has clearly been overcharging us and not keeping us properly involved/informed.

Kind regards,

NikM

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Please forgive my ignorance but do the figures that you quote for detailed design/tendering of 5% and 6-8% cover all of the architectural work up to this stage (meetings, plans, planning permission etc)? Please could you also advise on an appropriate % for the final stage (site supervision/checking the builders) - for a project like ours?

I have seen Architect's break domestic projects down into 3 stages of about 3.5% (planning permission), 4% (detail drawings and tendering) and 3.5% (site supervision). Should we expect a similar split for our commercial project?

The RIBA used to suggest fees for Architects but this was scrapped a few years back following pressure from the OFT ironically who said that it was limiting Architects' abilities to be competitive. This means that Architects will charge different jobs out at different rates and realistically will also charge what they judge a client is prepared to pay! Also not forgetting that say a £10m industrial unit project is likely to be far less labour intensive than say a £5m hospital but the hospital is gonna incur more fees. Therefore batting around percentages is futile. Tendering commercial building projects can be complicated for the uninitiated and as such you really must try to understand the service that you should have received before you can really judge the service you actually received. Get reading up on the PDF's in the link from my first post. It is very difficult to advise more accurately without having a total run down of the communications between you and your architect.