Are we keeping a list of LABCs who don't understand Part P?

[Donkmeister]

I have noticed in many posts here, people taking note of LABCs who either don't understand Part P responsibilities or try to get the householder to foot the bill.

I have one more to add to the list of those who don't quite get the point. Central Bedfordshire have instructed me:

Please ensure you can issue a BS7671 electrical certificate at completion.

I have responded nicely... as a former engineer I have seen what happens when one pees off a review panel prior to a design review!

Many thanks for your response.

I am not a member of an accredited scheme that would allow me to issue BS7671 certificates, hence my need to make an application to Building Control to ensure my installation does not fall foul of legislation.

With regards to Paras 1.24 - 1.28 of Part P of the Building Regulations, is a Building Notice sufficient?

I thought it would be better to list the paragraphs in order to get them to actually READ the legislation.

At £210+VAT they seem to be near the cheaper end of the spectrum, so perhaps their idea that householders pay for the inspection is driving things down!

 

[Adam_151]

You can certificate your work to BS7671 if you are competant...

 

[Taylortwocities]

Yes, but I think that Donk's point is that the LABC should be doing the testing as part of their £210+the dreaded.

 

[Donkmeister]

You can certificate your work to BS7671 if you are competant...

Well, I'm competent, but unfortunately I'm not "competent".

In other words, I am legally competent to design and install, but I am not certified with a BS7671 scheme, so I can't legitimately test and certify to BS7671. And it's that certification you need before you can energise the electrics that have been installed. So it's all a bit academic without it.

However, I AM suitably qualified to wander down to Faraday House and join the BS7671 team. Then I would be specificying the tolerances and designing testing methodologies that I am not "competent" to use in order to certify. Go figure.

I know, I know. It would be like me saying the bloke who writes the Highway Code should be allowed to drive regardless of having his licence.

And I know they have to write rules and regulations to stop the bloke who wants to rewire his house in bellwire using binding posts as outlets.

It's just annoying that I see examples of "professional" work posted on here that are obviously not right, whilst I have to pay £210+VAT to a BCO who plainly never entered Building Inspection to look at electrics and isn't qualified to look at electrics anyway.

2 years ago when I rung Mid Bedfordshire (Central Beds' predecessor) I got the distinct impression the BCO was far more interested in structural calcs and just wanted Part P to go away!

 

[Taylortwocities]

I think you misunderstand. There are no BS7671 schemes.

If you are competent (see BS7671 definition) then you can install and test and fill in a cert to say the installation meets a defined standard. That standard may be BS7671, it could be something else - Polish Wiring Regs, eg!

Now, some works need to be notified to the local authority. The way Part P is supposed to work ( ) is that you prove your competence to one of the registered bodies (NICEIC, NAPIT, etc) and then - in exchange for a dollop of cash - they will let you join their org.

This allows you to tell them of any notifiable works that you have done, and they will then notify the local authority that you have carried out notifiable works in the bathroom of Mrs Jones at 11 Railway Cuttings, Tooting.

You will, or course, give an installation certificate to Mrs Jones to say that the work you have carried out complies with BS7671 (or Polish Regs).

Capish?

 

[LiamPope]

For your information, the paragraphs you've referenced are not 'part of the building regulations' or 'the legislation'. Bedford BC will kindly point this out to you as they refuse to foot the bill for any testing (though they will send someone round to inspect who doesn't appear to know or care about BS7671). So whilst they acknowledge the route to a completion certificate described in paragraphs 1.24-1.27 of approved doc. P, they will ignore the bits about who pays for testing and ask you to get a PIR done.

If you were registered with a Competent Person scheme you don't need to involve BC at all as you can self certify. For the route to a completion certificate described in paragraphs 1.21-1.23 you only need to be competent/qualified, the exact details of which are not defined. In that case you should be able to complete the work, issue the EIC, then BC should give you the completion cert.

As bedford refuse to do the testing, and as I have access to test equipment myself, I'm hoping I can go down the latter route and submit my own EIC on the back of my electrical engineering degree (tenuous, I know ) I'd got as far as them saying they will accept my EIC with a copy of my 'training certificates', and I'd just asked them to clarify that they really meant a copy of my degree certificate would be acceptable when it all went quiet. Dunno if that's to do with the shakeup of the council or what, though I've not chased it up much yet. So that remains to be resolved but hopefully I've got a chance. If they refuse there too, I'll kick up as big a fuss as possible. If you've got some electrical qualifications to wave at them you may have a chance too.

Good luck,

Liam

 

[Donkmeister]

I think you misunderstand. There are no BS7671 schemes.

If you are competent (see BS7671 definition) then you can install and test and fill in a cert to say the installation meets a defined standard. That standard may be BS7671, it could be something else - Polish Wiring Regs, eg!

Now, some works need to be notified to the local authority. The way Part P is supposed to work ( ) is that you prove your competence to one of the registered bodies (NICEIC, NAPIT, etc) and then - in exchange for a dollop of cash - they will let you join their org.

This allows you to tell them of any notifiable works that you have done, and they will then notify the local authority that you have carried out notifiable works in the bathroom of Mrs Jones at 11 Railway Cuttings, Tooting.

You will, or course, give an installation certificate to Mrs Jones to say that the work you have carried out complies with BS7671 (or Polish Regs).

Capish?

I'm not so sure anymore! I thought the definition of competent person was "Has a subscription to NICEIC Monthly" but now I've looked at the BS7671 definition of "competent person" I see you've got a point

Looking at the defintion, I can prove I have sufficient technical knowledge and relevant practical skills... but I definitely can't prove any relevant experience as I'm not (and never have been) a domestic installer... I've added spurs and replaced a lightswitch but I would say that doesn't really cover a full rewire!

So, presumably that means I need to get my BCO to issue the Electrical Installation Certificate... right?

 

[Donkmeister]

For your information, the paragraphs you've referenced are not 'part of the building regulations' or 'the legislation'. Bedford BC will kindly point this out to you as they refuse to foot the bill for any testing (though they will send someone round to inspect who doesn't appear to know or care about BS7671). So whilst they acknowledge the route to a completion certificate described in paragraphs 1.24-1.27 of approved doc. P, they will ignore the bits about who pays for testing and ask you to get a PIR done.

Blimey, I think I'm in for a long slog here! How long have you been in discussions with them now? Have you managed to actually start work?

Wish I'd bothered to get my IEEE chartership now. And I'm really starting to wonder how much a PIR costs...

 

[1john]

if you have calibrated test equipment and are deemed competent to install and test and you have got a copy of the regs you can fill out any of the certificates in there.
Give that to the LABC, be interesting to see what they say to it.

 

[Donkmeister]

Give that to the LABC, be interesting to see what they say to it.

"Can I have £210+VAT now please?"

 

[bernardgreen]

What standards are to be used ?.

Is compliance with BS7671 the only way to ensure a safe installation ?

What would a LABC do if the installation was not to BS7671 but was in all aspects safe and could by logical explanation be shown to be safe.

Structural calculations can use many different "standards" to show the structure will be strong enough to not collapse during projected use of the building.

Exceptions can be issued in special cases where strict enforcement of revelent standards would make the project impossible. A common exception is (was) the "modified half hour ( 15 minutes ) fire resistance"

Enforcement

It is known that many local authorities make regular "patrols" of their area looking for obvious building works and check all discovered work against known applications for building approval.

Yet there are many cases of totally un-safe structural work being carried out.

How can compliance with Part P be enforced ?

Don't get me wrong. Anything that will be an effective way to reduce accidents is welcome by me. But I believes education of all people who live in a house, owned or rented, about the dangers of poorly designed and installed electrics would be a far more effective way to reduce ( not eliminate ) accidents.

A free advisory service ( paid out of the council tax ) to people thinking about having or doing electric work would be more effective in reducing the amount of un-safe work being done by cowboy electricians and ignorant DIYers.

 

[ricicle]

.From my local BCO website:
Non Competent Persons:

If you use an installer not registered under a competent person scheme or carryout the work yourself, a Building Regulation application is required under the Building Notice route. The application must be completed and submitted to us at least two working days before the electrical work is due to start. Our consultant electrician will then inspect the work and when found to be satisfactory, you will be issued with a completion certificate

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'd got as far as them saying they will accept my EIC with a copy of my 'training certificates', and I'd just asked them to clarify that they really meant a copy of my degree certificate would be acceptable when it all went quiet. Dunno if that's to do with the shakeup of the council or what, though I've not chased it up much yet.

Don't chase it up, as long as the acceptance you mentioned is in writing.

Do the work, send in the EIC with a copy of your degree certificate, and a covering letter referencing the one from them which said they would accept your EIC with a copy of your training certificates.

Assuming you want/need a Building Regulations completion certificate, that is...

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm not so sure anymore! I thought the definition of competent person was "Has a subscription to NICEIC Monthly" but now I've looked at the BS7671 definition of "competent person" I see you've got a point

Looking at the defintion, I can prove I have sufficient technical knowledge and relevant practical skills... but I definitely can't prove any relevant experience as I'm not (and never have been) a domestic installer... I've added spurs and replaced a lightswitch but I would say that doesn't really cover a full rewire!

In whatever you decide is within your competence to do, would you feel justified in signing this:

I being the person responsible for the Design, Construction, Inspection & Testing of the
electrical installation (as indicated by my signature below), particulars of which are
described above, having exercised reasonable skill and care when carrying out the Design,
Construction, Inspection & Testing, hereby CERTIFY that the said work for which I have
been responsible is to the best of my knowledge and belief in accordance with BS 7671:2008
amended to .......... (date) except for the departures, if any, detailed as follows:

?

So, presumably that means I need to get my BCO to issue the Electrical Installation Certificate... right?

They probably won't do that - even in cases where they do step up to their responsibilities they are only obliged to issue a Building Regulations Completion certificate.

 

[Paul_C]

Three Norfolk authorities - Norwich City Council, Broadland District Council, and South Norfolk District Council - use a kind of partnership service, which is still trying to enforce rules which don't exist:

Where electrical work is dealt with by us, an electrical installation and test certificate signed by a competent electrician will be required.

http://www.cncbuildingcontrol.gov.uk/frequently_asked_questions.htm#Q6x


My own local dictatorship, North Norfolk District Council, has the following on its website:

The alternative is to make an application under the Building Regulations, where a charge will be payable. We will also need drawings of the proposed works with cable sizes and routes clearly marked and inspections of the works will need to be carried out. Depending on the type of installation being carried out, independent testing may also be required.

http://www.north-norfolk.gov.uk/planning/244.asp#electrical