Bathroom Electrics Carried Out by Non-Certified Installer

[NeoX]

I am in the process of having a bathroom installed by a builder and have been having some serious problems with the tiling which have been discussed here. However, this threw up some further potential issues concerning the electrics as the builder is not certified to issue BS 7671 Design, Installation and Test Certificates.

I also did not seek Building Regulations approval before work commenced so I have this evening kicked off a Regularisation application with Newham Council. I understand this will mean an inspector will come and check the electrics at my expense, but I was told on the other topic that he may only be able to issue a 'completion certificate' under Part P, but not a 'wiring certificate'.

Is this true, and, if so, what are the implications? What options do I have?

Also, generally, I'm starting to wonder if I should just draft in a certified electrician to do the remaining electrics and certify the existing electrics (redoing as necessary) because the steam shower must be on its own circuit, and I believe all the bathroom electrics must be on RCD switches. My installer seemed a little nonchalant about this.

I've posted a job on MyBuilder to this effect just in case!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated at this late stage

 

[DaftPunk]

My advice would be to steer well clear of the likes of my builder type websites. They are generally populated by people who can't find work any other way.

Your best bet is to ask around friends, family and work colleagues for a tradesman they can recommend.

 

[EFLImpudence]

as the builder is not certified to issue BS 7671 Design, Installation and Test Certificates.

Anyone can issue the relevant electrical certificates (that you later call wiring certificates).

I also did not seek Building Regulations approval before work commenced so I have this evening kicked off a Regularisation application with Newham Council. I understand this will mean an inspector will come and check the electrics at my expense, but I was told on the other topic that he may only be able to issue a 'completion certificate' under Part P, but not a 'wiring certificate'.

Then that will be all you need.

Also, generally, I'm starting to wonder if I should just draft in a certified electrician to do the remaining electrics and certify the existing electrics (redoing as necessary)

That may be wise as your builder doesn't seem competent.

because the steam shower must be on its own circuit,

I doubt that is true.

and I believe all the bathroom electrics must be on RCD switches.

If new circuits that will be the case.

My installer seemed a little nonchalant about this.

As above.

I've posted a job on MyBuilder to this effect just in case!

I agree with the previous comment.

 

[NeoX]

as the builder is not certified to issue BS 7671 Design, Installation and Test Certificates.

Anyone can issue the relevant electrical certificates (that you later call wiring certificates).

I also did not seek Building Regulations approval before work commenced so I have this evening kicked off a Regularisation application with Newham Council. I understand this will mean an inspector will come and check the electrics at my expense, but I was told on the other topic that he may only be able to issue a 'completion certificate' under Part P, but not a 'wiring certificate'.

Then that will be all you need.

So, let's say I take the "risk" of allowing my existing installer to continue installing the electrics, then allow a Building Control inspector from Newham come to certify it, assuming that all is in order (or, if it isn't, the builder comes to rectify any issues), the inspector can issue a completion certificate and this is good enough for Building Regulations requirements?

because the steam shower must be on its own circuit,

I doubt that is true.

According to page 20 of the instruction manual, "This unit MUST be connected by an electrician and wired back to the main service box and signed off with a minor works certificate."

Does that not mean its own circuit?

and I believe all the bathroom electrics must be on RCD switches.

If new circuits that will be the case.

By "new circuits", as well as a new main circuit (as may be the case with the steam shower), do you also mean new circuits as in wiring for new lighting even if that is on the previous lighting circuit? Also, this reminds me, I should check with him that he is intending to protect the underfloor heating and heated towel rail with an RCD. So it definitely needs at least one RCD, even if the lighting is put on the old existing lighting circuit.

Thanks for your help so far by the way.

 

[flameport]

The steam shower needs it's own circuit, installing it is notifiable.
The other bathroom electrical items may be notifiable as well.
RCDs are required for most circuits, bathroom or not.

From the shambles of the tiling and other work, the 'builder' is grossly incompetent and it is a mystery why you are considering still using them.
Those tiles falling off could have easily killed someone.

 

[EFLImpudence]

So, let's say I take the "risk" of allowing my existing installer to continue installing the electrics,

Then he must issue the appropriate installation certificate(s).

then allow a Building Control inspector from Newham come to certify it, assuming that all is in order (or, if it isn't, the builder comes to rectify any issues), the inspector can issue a completion certificate and this is good enough for Building Regulations requirements?

Well, yes. He IS the Building Regulations.
He may inspect the certificates (as issued above) and decide there is no need for further inspection.

"This unit MUST be connected by an electrician and wired back to the main service box and signed off with a minor works certificate."

It just means as it also states "This can NOT be plugged in to the wall."

Does that not mean its own circuit?

Not necessarily but I doubt there would already be one that could be used.

By "new circuits", as well as a new main circuit (as may be the case with the steam shower), do you also mean new circuits as in wiring for new lighting even if that is on the previous lighting circuit? Also, this reminds me, I should check with him that he is intending to protect the underfloor heating and heated towel rail with an RCD. So it definitely needs at least one RCD, even if the lighting is put on the old existing lighting circuit.

That is correct.
There will no doubt be instruction from the manufacturer stating an RCD must be installed.
Page 5 of the generator instructions.

 

[NeoX]

So, let's say I take the "risk" of allowing my existing installer to continue installing the electrics,

Then he must issue the appropriate installation certificate(s).

then allow a Building Control inspector from Newham come to certify it, assuming that all is in order (or, if it isn't, the builder comes to rectify any issues), the inspector can issue a completion certificate and this is good enough for Building Regulations requirements?

Well, yes. He IS the Building Regulations.
He may inspect the certificates (as issued above) and decide there is no need for further inspection.

Sorry for sounding confused, but I just need to clarify this.

My builder is definitely not certified to issue an installation certificate, so he can't issue one. Therefore, if he does still complete the electrics, does that mean the Building Regulations inspector will then have to do a more fuller inspection of the work so that he can issue a certificate instead?

"This unit MUST be connected by an electrician and wired back to the main service box and signed off with a minor works certificate."

It just means as it also states "This can NOT be plugged in to the wall."

Does that not mean its own circuit?

Not necessarily but I doubt there would already be one that could be used.

OK, so what does wiring back to the main service box mean then? I thought that would mean its own circuit. It sounds like it to me, but I'm just a layman, not a sparky.

 

[JohnW2]

My builder is definitely not certified to issue an installation certificate, so he can't issue one.

There is no such thing as "certified to issue an installation certificate". As EFLI has said, the person who undertakes the installation, whoever that may be, must issue an Installation Certificate. If the BC inspector is not satisfied about the competence of the person concerned, then (s)he may require additional inspection and/or testing to be undertaken.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

The person issuing the installation or minor works must have the skill required to do the work that is the only qualification required so to say one does not have the qualifications to issue the certificate is the same as saying one does not have the skill to do the work so he is admitting he does not have the warranty of skill required.

A installation certificate is for a new circuit, and minor works is for an existing circuit which has been changed.

Is the builder from Corwen as it seems a repeat of what happened to me.

So now I am going to contradict what I have said above. When it happened to me with my mothers wet room we also contacted the LABC. My son had lost he temper with the builder who had walked off site so we decided to take over the job and until that point we thought the LABC had been informed.

When the inspector arrived he told us what he wanted to see with rest of work which was simple enough but with electrics he wanted us to pay for an electrician to do the work. Both my son and I are both electricians my father was a power station head technical supervisor and father-in-law electrical project director for hospital board so no way were we calling anyone in to do the electrics.

But the building inspector took a lot of convincing before he agreed we could inspect and test the installation. He would not accept my sons signature and he held the certificate required a C&G 2391 but finally agreed I could sign as I also had a degree in electrical and electronic engineering.

The point is although the builder if able to do the work must sign the installation certificate or minor works certificate the building inspector has the power to get a third party to inspect and test.

The installation certificate has a version with three signatures one for design one for installation and one for inspection and testing if the building inspector has a third party test and inspect then you need the certificate with builders signature on for first two parts so the electrician can sign the third bit for testing and inspection.

When the building inspector has the testing and inspection done either himself or third party he does NOT issue an installation certificate only a completion certificate so unless you have the certificate ready with other two signatures when the electrician arrives you will not have an installation certificate.

On the minor works certificate I have not seen any provision for three signatures may be others have?

I would say it's also important for who ever did the electrical work to be on site when the building inspector visits. He will ask questions and he may be satisfied or not by the answers. As I say on talking to him he took my signature but not my sons.

 

[NeoX]

Thanks for that informative reply ericmark about the different permutations concerning certificates.

So, to condense that down and summarise for my situation....

I will be having the switch box replaced with a 17th Edition consumer unit so that everything is on RCDs and/or MCBs. I guess this would be classed as a new installation all round for the entire bathroom and property. I'm assuming installation works is considered greater than and encompassing of minor works, so I can just have an installation certificate to cover everything that has been done. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

So, my builder can sign the design and installation parts of the installation certificate. I can then get a certified electrician to sign the inspection and testing part. I have already spoken to a couple of electricians that can do this and they are also able to do EICR and PAT testing which I believe I require for my Newham property licence. On that point actually, I'm not sure - they've asked for an "Electrical Appliance Test Report", so I'm assuming it's EICR and/or PAT testing.

Funny you mentioned you have a degree in electrical and electronic engineering. I have an electronic engineering degree as well as a chartered engineer and MIET, so I could probably sign off the design part at least - not that I would anyway - I'm not up to speed with regulations.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I will be having the switch box replaced with a 17th Edition consumer unit

Which is notifiable.

So, my builder can sign the design and installation parts of the installation certificate.

He may, but whether his signature is worth anything is another matter.


I being the person responsible for the Design of the electrical installation (as indicated by my signature below), particulars of which are described above, having exercised reasonable skill and care when carrying out the Design, hereby CERTIFY that the said work for which I have been responsible is to the best of my knowledge and belief in accordance with BS 7671:2008, amended to 2011 except for the departures, if any, detailed as follows...


The question is what grounds does the builder have for asserting that? I would be suspicious of someone who claimed that he could legitimately declare that he could design & install in accordance with BS 7671 but was unable to test his own work.

I can then get a certified electrician to sign the inspection and testing part.

In theory yes.

In practice you may find that very hard to arrange because many electricians feel that when carrying out the I&T, the declaration they are signing:

I being the person responsible for the Inspection & Testing of the electrical installation (as indicated by my signature below), particulars of which are described above, having exercised reasonable skill and care when carrying out the Inspection & Testing, hereby CERTIFY that the said work for which I have been responsible is to the best of my knowledge and belief in accordance with BS 7671:2008, amended to 2011 except for the departures, if any, detailed as follows...

is more than a declaration that they did the I&T in accordance with BS 7671, it is also a confirmation that the Designer and the Constructor did their work in accordance with it. Inspection can be fraught if cables have been covered up, made inaccessible etc.

I have already spoken to a couple of electricians that can do this and they are also able to do EICR and PAT testing

EICR & PAT yes - have you explicitly asked them if they will sign the 3rd part of an EIC where the first two parts have been signed by someone not necessarily qualified to do so?

which I believe I require for my Newham property licence.

Since you're visible to the council, be aware that the electrical work requires Building Regulations approval. The process you describe above does not get you this. Despite the provision for it in the regulations there are no registered third-party certifiers yet (probably never will be), so you would still need to apply for Building Regulations approval in advance.

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[NeoX]

Thanks for all that information ban-all-sheds. There is a process called Regularisation where I can seek Building Regulations approval retrospectively. I've already kicked this process off.

The qualified electricians I have spoken to are aware of the situation and seemed fine with signing off existing work in principle.

I'm a little confused about the different certificates. I was under the impression that an installation certificate (which contains three parts) for installation works was different and separate to an EICR which I thought was something that is done by a certified electrician on all the pre-existing electrics in the property regardless of when installed. What's an EIC? Is this different to an EICR?

I can see from the pages you attached that para 3.9 mentions an EICR, but, based on the other information I've had on here, I'm not sure if this is the same as, or in addition to, or an alternative/replacement for a three-signature installation certificate. Please clarify.

And on top of all this, there is a completion certificate with the inspector will issue once he is satisfied the three-part installation certificate has all been signed off properly. Is that right?

Sorry for sounding so confused or detailed - I'm just trying to get my head around the whole process.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There is a process called Regularisation where I can seek Building Regulations approval retrospectively. I've already kicked this process off.

Ouc£.

I'm a little confused about the different certificates. I was under the impression that an installation certificate (which contains three parts)

Usually one part for domestic work done by an electrician

I being the person responsible for the Design, Construction, Inspection & Testing of the electrical installation (as indicated by my signature below), particulars of which are described above, having exercised reasonable skill and care when carrying out the Design, Construction, Inspection & Testing, hereby CERTIFY that the said work for which I have been responsible is to the best of my knowledge and belief in accordance with BS 7671:2008, amended to 2011 except for the departures, if any, detailed as follows.

for installation works was different and separate to an EICR which I thought was something that is done by a certified electrician on all the pre-existing electrics in the property regardless of when installed. What's an EIC? Is this different to an EICR?

An EIC is an Electrical Installation Certificate, it carries the above declaration (or the 3 separate ones), and to comply with the Wiring Regulations one must be issued by the designer/constructor/tester for all new work which is not so minor that it only needs an MEIWC (Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate, often incorrectly abbreviated to MWC).

An EICR is, as you say, a report on the condition of the installation, and in terms of the Wiring Regulations, BS 7671, it is not a substitute for an EIC/MEIWC for certifying new work.

For notifiable work done by someone who is not able to self-certify compliance with the Building Regulations, and not able to issue an EIC, LABCs will often accept an EICR from a qualified electrician as proof that the electrical work was OK.

And on top of all this, there is a completion certificate with the inspector will issue once he is satisfied the three-part installation certificate has all been signed off properly. Is that right?

If that's what they want, yes. They won't issue you with an EIC, so unless the builder is competent to sign it then it's pointless having one. If your LABC is happy with an EICR then that's all you need.

 

[NeoX]

OK, so I really need to wait until the LABC contacts me and tells me what they need to satisfy the Building Regulations approval.

In the meantime, I'll just get an EIC with the first two parts signed off by my builder and the third part signed off by a qualified electrician. The person who signs off the third part will also provide me with an EICR for the whole property (which effectively encompasses the work done). This should be more than enough for the LABC hopefully. It's the most I can reasonably procure at this juncture I think.

However, my builder has said he knows a qualified electrician who will sign off all three parts of the EIC. I'm not sure how kosher that is, but am I legally above board if someone other than the person who did the work signs off all three parts (given that he's fully qualified to do so)?

Speaking of which, what registration must he have to sign off the third part of an EIC and to issue an EICR? Is it NICEIC, Registered Competent Person, NAPIT, or a combination thereof?

 

[JohnW2]

However, my builder has said he knows a qualified electrician who will sign off all three parts of the EIC. I'm not sure how kosher that is, but am I legally above board if someone other than the person who did the work signs off all three parts (given that he's fully qualified to do so)?

I would say that you can't possibly be expected to investigate the qualifications and background of those who sign the certificate. If you are given a certificate, and are satisfied that it satisfactorily identifies who has signed it (just in case anyone wants to check!), then I reckon you've probably done as much as you can reasonably be expected to do.

Kind Regards, John