Bathroom Light Switch

Certainly, and sometimes I feel that once some device has been established as being "good," reporting often includes some comment when such a device was not present or not being used, implying - but without actually saying - that if the device had been present and in use, the fatality would not have occurred.

For example, how often does a news report of a road accident these days note that "Mr. X" was killed in the collision and then add a statement about how he was not using a seat belt? Both may undoubtedly be true statements, but it does not necessarily mean that he would have survived if he had been buckled up. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, depending upon the circumstances, but many listeners are left with the inferred link between the two. Conversely, how often does a news report note that "Mr. X" was using a seat belt but was killed anyway? Almost never - They note the fatality and unless there's some real specific reason, the belt doesn't get a mention. Surely that has to skew many people's perception of things?

So I feel it has become with the RCD. As you say, an RCD or GFCI will do nothing to protect anybody from an L-N or L-L shock, unless there is simultaneous L-E current of sufficient magnitude (or unless the points are on different circuits, which is far more unlikely than them being fed via the same RCD/GFCI). But I wonder how often somebody hears about such a fatality which then has some added comment about how the circuit didn't meet current code by not having such protection, and then assumes that had the device been present it would have saved a life?

While I acknowledge the effectiveness of the RCD/GFCI in many cases, I do feel that it has been promoted in some quarters in an unrealistic way, since there really are some people out there who believe that with an RCD/GFCI it's impossible so sustain a dangerous shock. To me, if people start becoming careless (damaged cords, broken plugs, doesn't matter if I drag these connectors through the water etc.) because they believe that the RCD/GFCI will automatically prevent any sort of electric shock hazard, that's far more dangerous than not having the devices in the first place and people actually taking care.

Again, does the prevalence of the RCD/GFCI these days invoke that risk compensation behavior in some people (just as with those drivers who demonstrate a tendency to take more risks behind the wheel once given their perceived extra safety of seat belts, disc brakes, ABS or whatever) which negates any safety improvement, and in some cases may actually make things worse? Food for thought!
 
Sponsored Links
because they believe that the RCD/GFCI will automatically prevent any sort of electric shock hazard, that's far more dangerous than not having the devices in the first place and people actually taking care

EXACTLY........ adding more rules to "ensure safety" invariably means people pay less attention to looking out for their own safety.
 
... As you say, an RCD or GFCI will do nothing to protect anybody from an L-N or L-L shock ... But I wonder how often somebody hears about such a fatality which then has some added comment about how the circuit didn't meet current code by not having such protection, and then assumes that had the device been present it would have saved a life?
Indeed - but, as we have both implied, it is often not going to even be known whether the shock was L-E, L-N or what.
While I acknowledge the effectiveness of the RCD/GFCI in many cases ....
As I've said, I wouldn't personally go that far, because (despite the theoretical potential for RCDs to prevents deaths/injuries) I just don't know enough facts (in terms of injuries and deaths) to be able to know. The oft-cited ESC (now ESF) figures (some of which are, IMO, very questionable) almost shoot their own message in the foot - they report that in 2010, when they say that 25-40% of UK domestic dwellings had no RCD protection, there were only 22 domestic electrocutions in the UK.
To me, if people start becoming careless (damaged cords, broken plugs, doesn't matter if I drag these connectors through the water etc.) because they believe that the RCD/GFCI will automatically prevent any sort of electric shock hazard, that's far more dangerous than not having the devices in the first place and people actually taking care.
Of course - and, as you go on to say, that applies widely - e.g. to seat belts, crash helmets, PPE, 'safety features of power tools etc. etc. - even to condoms to 'prevent' HIV transmission.

Kind Regards, John
Edit: typo corrected
 
Last edited:
That literal question obviously would be impossible to answer. However, the other question I have often asked (here and elsewhere) is how many people have experienced, or even heard of, cases in which an RCD has operated in response to someone receiving an electric shock - since those are cases in which the outcome might have been fatal in the absence of the RCD. However, despite having asked many people that question many times, I've still only had two or three people telling me that they were aware of a case in which a shock had resulted in an RCD operating.

Kind Regards, John
I came to fit a water supply to the fridge. This required a channel in the wall so two hacksaw blades with a spacer were tapped together to cut two lines so I could make a channel for the 10mm pipe. It seems the light switch at inside door had horizontal cables to a two way switch at the outside door this I had not expected. So I hit the live cables. It was enough to knock me to the floor, the RCD did trip but I am sure I was well clear by time the power turned off. So this to me shows the RCD only really helps where the fault is not directly due to human activity. A faulty washing machine or kettle will trip the RCD before anyone touches live parts so the RCD protects well. But drill into a wall and hit live cables and the only protection the RCD may afford is it will turn the drill off and in the main it will not even do that as we try to have sockets and lights in a room on different RCD's.

AC current does not tend to cause one not to let go, so it is unlikely one would ever be in contact for more than 40 ms. The 40 ms means 4 shocks maximum at 50 cycles RCD's could trip in 10 ms (8.3 in USA) but that is the limit for AC in real terms. So in real terms protecting cables buried in the wall will only help when there is something which happens slowly or at least is present for some time.

The Hilary Thompson, [/URL]Mary Wherry and Emma Shaw cases may have been prevented if an RCD had been used. The Mary Wherry is questionable as "She is believed to have been putting a spoon on to a metal, wall-mounted utensil rack" so there is no report of shocks before the event or any dampness which may have tripped an RCD. The report says "Mrs Wherry had been killed instantly." which means a 40 ms RCD would not have saved her.

Emma Shaw would have been saved by an RCD as there was loads of time for it to have tripped. With Hilary Thompson it also seems likely a RCD would have tripped before she had the shock the report seems to indicate a 3A fuse would have ruptured but the 13A fuse did not so a 30 mA RCD would have tripped. In other report I have read it states shocks were felt before the fatal shock so of the three reports it would seem 2 out of the 3 deaths would have been avoided with RCD protection.

So including my own near miss it would seem the RCD helps 50% of the time.
 
Sponsored Links
To me, if people start becoming careless (damaged cords, broken plugs, doesn't matter if I drag these connectors through the water etc.) because they believe that the RCD/GFCI will automatically prevent any sort of electric shock hazard, that's far more dangerous than not having the devices in the first place and people actually taking care.
There was a report on which cars going by claims to insurance were the safest and most dangerous to travel in. This was some 25 years ago but the results showed most dangerous was a Volvo and safest was the Reliant. It was not the car it was the drivers who use them. Having just a bit of fibre glass or metal clearly changes the way people drive.
 
as you go on to say, that applies widely - e.g. to seat belts, crash helmets, PPI, 'safety features of power tools etc. etc. - even to condoms to 'prevent' HIV transmission.

Payment Protection Insurance??;)
 
Personal protective equipment PPE is I am sure what was intended. Although I had never considered condoms as PPE before! I was taught PPE should be as last resort. In other words if you need PPE it means the environment has not been made safe. I look as a telephone guy at the top of a pole with a hard hat on. Is the sky going to fall on his head? And guy at bottom with hard hat on, but no exclusion zone so if members of the public are not excluded then why does he need a hard hat and not them?
 
A faulty washing machine or kettle will trip the RCD before anyone touches live parts so the RCD protects well.
You raise a different, but relevant, issue. I was obviously talking about the potential role of an RCD in preventing an electric shock having a fatal outcome, whereas you are talking about the potential for an RCD to disconnect the supply in the event of a fault, before any electric shock is experienced. I would think that the majority of appliance (and even wiring) faults are very low impedance ones, in which case the primary protective device (MCB or fuse) ought to disconnect the supply (in a TN installation), although I accept that there will be some higher-impedance faults which would cause an RCD, but not an OPD, to operate.

In context, determining whether any of these cases of "RCD operated before any shock" have ever 'saved a life' is even more impossible - since one doesn't even know (a) whether an OPD would have operated in the absence of an RCD or (b) whether anyone would ever have experienced a shock of any sort, let alone a fatal one!

Kind Regards, John
 
I was taught PPE should be as last resort. In other words if you need PPE it means the environment has not been made safe.
Fair enough, but some environments are, by definition, 'not safe' (such as when deliberately working on live cables, fighting fires etc.) and very often cannot be 'guaranteed to be totally safe', no matter how many safeguards and precautions are in place.

Kind Regards, John
 
Though it may be permissible to have a wall mounted light switch in the bathroom, I would still recommend a pull switch or a wall switch outside the room.

Somehow it anything else just looks and seems wrong.

What would you prefer, out of interest?
I'd prefer people to make design choices properly, not based on "that's the way it's always been done and anything else just looks and seems wrong".
 
I'd prefer people to make design choices properly, not based on "that's the way it's always been done and anything else just looks and seems wrong".
I agree with that as a general concept but, in the case we're discussing, I think that there is a bit more than "that's the way it's always been done ..." to the feeling that many have that ordinary wall light switches in a room where people may well have wet hands (and possibly wet, naked, bodies, which could be in contact with anything) is not necessarily too good an idea - even if, contrary to what many seem to believe, there is no regulatory prohibition of such switches (outside of 'zones').

Kind Regards, John
 
What are the figures for the number of people killed or injured by using normal light switches in bathrooms?

How hard is it to not use such a switch until you've dried your hands?

If the rest of your body being wet makes it hazardous, what kind of switch fault(s) are you positing, and/or what body part(s) do you envisage being used to operate the switch?
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top