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BBC1 and BBC2 Not Receiving - Log Periodic Aerial

Discussion in 'Audio Visual' started by Barnman, 19 Jul 2020.

  1. Barnman

    Barnman

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    Hello

    I have bought a log periodic aerial from TLC https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MX27879D.html

    It does not pick up BBC1 and BBc2 and possibly others. I thought this aerial type would be OK for Winter Hill. I am not close but receive an excellent signal with a bigger aerial on an adjoining property. Any advice on why this doesn't work and what I need to do.

    Thanks
     
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  3. winston1

    winston1

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    Did you measure or calculate the signal levels available at your location or did you just buy an aerial of your choice? I notice that aerial you bought has a 24dB masthead amplifier built in. Possibly this is causing overloading of the TVs tuner.

    I suggest you try a log periodic without a built in amplifier or what about a similar aerial to the one on the adjoining property.
     
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  4. Barnman

    Barnman

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    I just bought one. But am I correct that in theory this should work. I will try with a different TV. The one that works is much bigger and this small one looked much easier to put up and more discrete.
     
  5. winston1

    winston1

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    Without knowing the signal levels in your location no one can know whether in theory it will work. In general the more metal in the air the better chance of getting a good signal. High gain masthead amplifiers can never compensate for a poor aerial or signal. Their sole purpose is to overcome the loss on a long run of coax cable and 24dB is far too higher a gain for that and as I have already said is possibly overloading the TVs tuner. Trying with a different TV is unlikely to change things.

    By the way there is no such thing as a digital aerial. TLC are lying in their literature.
     
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  6. ericmark

    ericmark

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    I am sure @Lucid will give you more info, but Winter Hill from memory is a mainly a banded aerial but does depend on direction. Clearly the aerial needs to be set in the right direction, and also you need a coax cable with no band pass filters in the circuit or it will not get the DC supply to pre-amp. It also needs either a power supply or the TV setting to give power to the pre-amp.
     
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  7. Lucid

    Lucid

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    I'd go with @winston1's suggestion that there's too much gain from that amp.

    I'm on Winter Hill too. My place is in Middlewich. WH is 31 miles away. The signal predictor at Wolfbane tells me that for my location I need a high-gain aerial with additional amplification. That's not my experience. My Log has been up a while. It's a full-sized 470-862MHz aerial, and so predates the newer Logs with use narrower bands following the various RF channel clearance events. As such then, the aerial is relatively low gain, and there's no additional amplification on it.

    My signal is perfect for all the SD and HD muxes with the exception of the low power (1000W) That's Manchester service (RF ch56, 754MHz). I do pick up the 2000W Liverpool version though (Bay TV) also on RF ch56, 754MHz. The signal level on all the muxes is easily strong enough that I could split at least 3-ways with a simple passive splitter, so no amplification is needed at all.

    I supply the local narrowboaters with aerials too. Although I recommend a full-sized Log where possible, quite a few opt for the shorter mini-Log but still get decent results here.

    Your Philex brand aerial with its additional amplification of 24dB is a hell of a lot of boost. The tuner in most TVs has both an upper- and a lower- signal level threshold. Amplifying the signal too much is just as bad as having a poor signal level. If you wanted to, you could try a 1-20dB variable attenuator on the signal output going from the power supply going to the TV. Toolstation does the ProCeption one for less than a fiver. LINK I would suggest this as a test rather than a permanent solution. (Note: The attenuator stops DC power, so if you were tempted to try it on the wrong side of the power brick it will kill the juice going up the aerial amp so you'll get no signal at all.)

    In answer to your question "But am I correct that in theory this should work." IMO, unless you're in an absolutely terrible signal spot, then the answer is no because there's just too much amplification even for a "medium" signal area.



    If this and other replies were helpful to you, then please do the decent thing and click the T-H-A-N-K-S button on all those the posts. This isn't a big thing to ask of you. It takes a couple of seconds to do, and it costs you nothing.

    You'll find that the Thanks button appears when you hover the mouse pointer near the Quote Multi-quote buttons.

    This is the proper way to show your thanks and respect for the time, experience and help someone gave to you when you were in need. Be a good forum user and say thank you in the proper way. It will help to ensure that you continue to receive advice.
     
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  9. Barnman

    Barnman

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    Thank that's great. I should have mentioned I am going via a multi-switch too. I will try it direct to TV to see if it makes a difference. I am not far from Middlewich (near Knutsford). I did wonder if it was the fact that Winter Hill was going to be changing to a type A but this is delayed. I don't understand the implications of this but it is what I have read. However I will try those suggestions - or will need to get another aerial.

    Thanks again really helpful.
     
  10. Lucid

    Lucid

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    By the look of it, the masthead amp can be bypassed on that aerial. In theory then, it looks like you could try the aerial direct rather than with amplification. You'd need a barrel connector to join the two F connections at the aerial end.

    Having that aerial and then not using the amplification and stuff is a bit of a waste of resources though. I guess it's a question of the cost and hassle of returning the bits versus just leaving the unused stuff in a drawer or cupboard.

    Running in to the multiswitch shouldn't change the qay the aerial works so long as the power supply sits btween the switch and aerial.

    Its very likely though that the switch adds a small amount of amplification to compensate for cable length losses from the switch to the TVs. This might be 2-3 dB. You'd need to check the manual.
     
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  11. Barnman

    Barnman

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    Thanks - yes just this minute I have bought male to male f plug connectors. I will be trying it later.
     
  12. Barnman

    Barnman

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    Tried a different TV and now getting channels 1 and 2 but not HD channels but that is probably due to the aerial. It is fine for what I need it for. I also bypassed the booster on the aerial which improved the number of channels.

    Thanks for your help.
     
  13. Lucid

    Lucid

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    Unless the TV (or other type of receiver) has no HD tuner, then I can't see a good reason for not getting the HD channels when you already receive the SD ones unless there's some damage to the aerial or cabling that's making a selective channel filter and knocking out channels 54 and 55.

    I would perhaps recheck the tuning. Here's a quick and dirty list of the channel groups:

    Winter Hill SD muxes
    PSB1 BBCA - ch32 - 562MHz - 100,000W - the main BBC1, BBC2 channels
    PSB2 D3+4 - ch59 - 778MHz - 100,000W - the main ITV (Granada), Ch4, Ch5 channels
    COM4 SDN - ch58 - 770MHz - 100,000W - ITV Ch4 Ch5 '+1' services, shopping channels
    COM5 ArqA - ch49 - 698MHz - 100,000W - Film4+1, food, docs, quiz channels
    COMB ArqB - ch37 - 602MHz - 100,000W - movies, crime & drama, Aljazeera
    LL (local Liverpool) - ch21 - 474 - 2,000W - Liverpool Bay TV, Sony channels, Ideal Extra etc
    L (local Manchester??) ch24 - 498MHz - 1000W - Local Manchester??


    Winter Hill HD muxes
    PSB3 BBCB - ch54 - 738MHz - 100,000W - BBC HD channels, ITV HD, Ch4 HD, Ch5 HD
    COM7 ...... - ch55 - 746MHz - 25,700W - mixed HD and SD channels on a HD mux - BBC4 HD, More 4+1, Freesports



    Emley Moor (Yorkshire TV) SD muxes also receivable and watchable
    PSB2 D3+4 - ch44 - 658MHz ITV (Yorkshire), Ch4, Ch5 channels
    COM4 SDN - ch33 - 570MHz


    The BBC and ITV HD channels are broadcast at the same power as the SD ones, and so if the TV has an HD tuner, and all is well with the aerial and cabling, and there are no other as-yet-undisclosed devices filtering the signals, then really you should be able to pick up the HD channels.
     
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