Best heating option (combi vs unvented cylinder)

so accumulator would need to be 350l if 250l tank, that is quite large.
250L is quite a large unvented - I have 3 showers, and can run them all off of a 180L unvented.

To give a benchmark, I can run a 12L/Min shower @ 38Deg for 7odd mins and use ~ 90 L of water - that's around a 65%-35% H/C split. Whilst showering the CH then kicks in and is re-heating the cylinder - the cylinder has a high recovery coil and will re-heat to 70% @ 55deg in 15mins. The only time the cylinder is really emptied is when my better half is in doing her 'big' wash and brush up.

Electric showers have their place where alternatives are impractical, more so as a secondary/backup option though IME or CH isn't available. When a person's experienced both mains and electric, then it's hard to look at electric as the primary option. When it comes to stored HW though, even with a boiler failure, the immersion backup would still preferable.
 
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250L is quite a large unvented - I have 3 showers, and can run them all off of a 180L unvented.

To give a benchmark, I can run a 12L/Min shower @ 38Deg for 7odd mins and use ~ 90 L of water - that's around a 65%-35% H/C split. Whilst showering the CH then kicks in and is re-heating the cylinder - the cylinder has a high recovery coil and will re-heat to 70% @ 55deg in 15mins. The only time the cylinder is really emptied is when my better half is in doing her 'big' wash and brush up.

Electric showers have their place where alternatives are impractical, more so as a secondary/backup option though IME or CH isn't available. When a person's experienced both mains and electric, then it's hard to look at electric as the primary option. When it comes to stored HW though, even with a boiler failure, the immersion backup would still preferable.
What is your static pressure at the house? and have you a dynamic pressure for any given flow?
 
Yes - Static can be 4.5bar -5bar, time of day dependent, dynamic plateaus @ ~3bar dynamic @ ~20L/min.

Were lucky to have a great service, primarily due to location and proximity to the pumping stations.
 
gt190's static and dynamic flowrates are almost identical to the other thread that is on here (something like "is 12LPM ok for a combi") and seems to me that a lot of these water boards are really only giving a pressure sufficient to fill the CWSTs in the attic, in both cases the static pressure is only 2.0bar?
Around here they only guarantee 1.0bar but mine is a consistent 3.6bar for years.
 
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seems to me that a lot of these water boards are really only giving a pressure sufficient to fill the CWSTs in the attic, in both cases the static pressure is only 2.0bar?
Yeah, I come across it a lot up here, especially in the newer satellite estate new builds. After talking to a few chaps that I know who work for Scottish Water, a lot of the newer estates that are going up are venturing further away from the core district mains supplies and the water board can't up the mains pressure as it causes problems with some of the ageing city infrastructure. As long as they supply the regulators accept min of 9L/Min @ 1bar then they're in the clear until they upgrade the old stuff. Must be said though, they are in the middle of a major programme of upgrading a lot of the inner city core mains.

I am lucky being out in the sticks in Glasgow and smack bang in the middle of 3 pumping stations that are all interlinked and they have just upgraded the mains to a nice big fat blue MDPE supply due a new estate going in further out.
 
gt190's static and dynamic flowrates are almost identical to the other thread that is on here (something like "is 12LPM ok for a combi") and seems to me that a lot of these water boards are really only giving a pressure sufficient to fill the CWSTs in the attic, in both cases the static pressure is only 2.0bar?
Around here they only guarantee 1.0bar but mine is a consistent 3.6bar for years.
yep thames water down here, they are basically bankrupt and always dealing with burst pipes around me. the chap told me they wont increase the pressure as it will just mean more burst pipes for them.


Separately, my old combi seems to be giving up. wife was in the shower this morning and kettling (banging noise) and temps going above 100.

I moved into the house in May and its around 14 years old and I have no idea how the previous owners maintained it. I serviced and power flushed, but doesn’t seem to have been done properly if I am still getting blockages.

Might be that we just replace the combi, live with it for another 5 or so years and then looking into doing the major works for the cylinder another time.
 
If your rads are heating OK then probably the plate heat exchanger (PHEX) , you might try( as a temporary measure, if not already tried) reducing the DHW temperature setting to ~ 45/50C and see how the shower performs then, you may have to reduce the flowrate to stop the banging, give it a try.
 
Something we seem to hear a lot in here about Thames water and the poor pressure in some of there more built up areas, in saying that they do supply London and surrounding I beleive, so their infrastructure must be creaking. Where abouts are you?
 
Back in the 80's I fitted a Main 7 boiler for my domestic hot water so I could move some inertia walls and make the airing cupboard into a third bedroom. This was before CH and DHW boilers were combined. It worked well for 40 years, on selling the house the two boilers were swapped for a combi by new owners (My Son).

It was done to gain room, but it did have it's down side, same with my late mothers house, Combi fitted because the water tank was leaking.

However in both cases the problem was size of pipes, to get domestic hot water there were some large diameter pipes which need filling, so turn on a tap and one gets a bowl full of cold water before the hot water arrives, had the house been designed to use a combi, then pipes would have been 15 mm not 32 mm. Combi in mothers house was in kitchen, so kitchen taps were OK, my old house it was in garage, so all points slow to get hot water.

There was also a delay with the boiler, it takes time before the output water is hot, there was a option with mothers boiler for a small reservoir which could be selected to reduce heat up time, but using it resulted in shower going hot, cold then hot again as the reservoir ran out before the boiler warmed up.

There old cistern was low pressure with a hot coil to heat it from the central heating, the hot coil was not very fast transferring the heat, I know with this house the boiler only runs 20 minutes to heat DHW before the return becomes too hot, and the tank is no where near hot enough, the hot coil simply can't sink 20 kW of heat. But the new cisterns heat exchangers can sink enough heat so the hot coil can supply the domestic hot water at mains pressure and the cistern is still header tank fed, so no annual tests required.
Torrent pipe example.PNG
The main advantage of using stored hot water is one can combine multi heating methods, and use off peak power, my brother-in-law had this system, when he moved he looked into having it in his new house, but cost was around the £20k mark, and at 72 not worth the money it will never pay back.

So we move to the cost side, tanks of water are heavy, and if using solid fuel they need to be high up so thermo syphon will still work with a power cut, we don't want a back boiler over heating.

So we start to look at the whole plan, not simply the heating, I with electric solar panels use the excess in the summer to heat my domestic hot water, that is cheaper than fitting extra batteries, so I want a storage tank as it saves me money. My tank is not pressurised, and the DHW is at low pressure, I can still have a power shower, but my problem is getting the hot water supply to the shower, at the moment they only have a cold water supply. Also cold water would need to come from same header tank as hot water. This could be done, but the point is cost of doing it.

And that is the major problem, it is easy to say best system is xyz so fitting it into my new build, but to convert an old house costs a lot of money, so we still use instant heat electric showers, OK if we shower at right time of day cheap to run, solar and battery provide some of the power, but using the DHW would be better.

I have a big problem, my floors have been repaired with plywood over the original MDF so to access the pipes between the beams means drop the ceiling. Not impossible but expensive. And with an oil fired boiler, the combi option is really a hot water storage tank built into the boiler, it is not like the gas combi. If I was using gas then combi would be possible, but then I would have a massive storage tank in the garden as would not be allowed where my oil tank is.

Some people do have mains gas, if I had that then would use gas, but the main point is one has to plan as a whole, not just how am I going to get DHW, it is how can I best do it with this house. Are my floors strong enough to take weight of a water tank, can I route new pipe work, will I be adding solar panels, will I want EV charging, how big is the electric supply, can I have electric showers on this supply, if I do can I still charge an EV, even can the EV be used as a reservoir to run the electric shower.

I have solar panels which can still charge my battery in a power cut, and I have the oil fired central heating supplied from the battery back up system so with a power cut my central heating still works. Which is why to my mind heat pumps electrical powered are non starters. An oil powered heat pump would be good, but not seen them marketed, other than for refrigerated vehicles. Likely it would need a generator to supply the electric to an electric heat pump, and the government has changed the tax laws so generators must run on diesel engine road vehicle (DERV) fuel, so now rather expensive to run a heat pump which can still work in a power cut.
 
I'd advise following the Unvented cylinder route. It is easy to use your existing combi to heat an unvented cylinder, however your initial statement of 1.9 bar and 50 lpm does sound a little far fetched, especially for a 1960s house. Yes to 1.9 bar static pressure, but the flow rate was probably measured (or gauged) in the street. The run to your house will drop the dynamic pressure significantly, hence the much lower flowrate at your kitchen tap.

Consider installing a much larger mains pipe from the street (from the water meter if it's in the street), say 25mm or even 32mm. This way you'll lose very little pressure once the water starts to flow.
I assume practical considerations limit the UV cylinder location to the loft, so an uprated supply should be installed to it (22mm copper). Beyond that you will have made the best improvements to your water infrastructure, so you will have the best chance of meeting your requirements when, in 15 years or so, the nippers start falling asleep standing up in the shower (they are unique in their ability to do this until ALL your hot water is exhausted).
Perhaps one smaller cylinder for your main shower, and a second for the teenagers may suit better than one large cylinder!

Solar PV on the roof and an excess generation diverter (solar iBoost/ immersun, etc.) would help reduce water heating bills tremendously, and much cheaper than solar thermal.

MM
 
I'd say the WB were getting 50LPM at 1.9bar by letting it gush out at their end. If, as it seems that the static pressure is 2bar then can't see one getting more than say 1.7bar/1.8 bar at 25LPM even if the pipework is upgraded, is this OK when feeding a upstairs shower?.
 
If your rads are heating OK then probably the plate heat exchanger (PHEX) , you might try( as a temporary measure, if not already tried) reducing the DHW temperature setting to ~ 45/50C and see how the shower performs then, you may have to reduce the flowrate to stop the banging, give it a try.

thanks - it was at 55, will try reducing and see how it goes

Something we seem to hear a lot in here about Thames water and the poor pressure in some of there more built up areas, in saying that they do supply London and surrounding I beleive, so their infrastructure must be creaking. Where abouts are you?
i am in chigwell (IG7)
 

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