BIASI 28S - No DHW

[Donncha]

Hi Forum

Having lurked a lot (and it seems I have read most of Tony’s 29,945 posts!javascript:emoticon('') ) I am asking for help with a Biasi 28S Combi - vintage 2002. The boiler was installed in 3003 and has performed very well ever since – on the principle of “If it ain't broke, don't fix it” I am ashamed to say it has had never had any maintenance, not ever.

Symptoms are C/H okayish but no DHW.

DHW seemed to have a few days when my morning bath seemed a bit colder than I liked; then a week ago it gave up the ghost. (I have managed ever since by getting enough tepid water for a 2” bath by trickling water).

After reading advice given to others I conclude there is an excellent chance that the big diverter diaphragm is probably at fault. I have taken the panels off to take a look at the inside and think I would have no difficulty at all in changing it. If it worked it would be a cheap fix at £6 with the help of most lucid instructions on past posts in this forum!

I do realize that something else may be to blame but it seems sensible to at least eliminate the diaphragm from my enquiries. I hope you will all agree! I do not have much space to the sides of the unit to work and I do not see how it is possible to get to the inside end of the diverter valve without removing the gas valve. The service manual seems to suggest it is possible!

Whilst the boiler is accessible I would like to get our friendly plumber (he’s a Corgi too) to clean the debris around the burners. I had thought I could do that myself but see I would need an 18” screwdriver with a good magnetic tip – which I don’t have – to get to first base. I am happy to pay for a pro to do this – but if I can avoid it I don’t want anyone to embark on a repair job which might end up as an open ended fishing expedition. If I were to buy a suitable screwdriver and decided to do this myself would I be straying into Corgi-land?

I am not a gas engineer myself but over 40 years have installed, used and maintained gas boilers in my homes in four South American countries where people have had the right to blow themselves up without rules and regulations to prevent them doing so! In these countries the concept of a registered gas fitter would be as ridiculous as a registered brick layer would be to us! javascript:emoticon('')

TIA for any help.
Don

 

[kevplumb]

better wait for "god" then as most who post on here are only nupty installers and therefore not fit to lick his boots

 

[ChrisR]

Diaphragm if the pin's not coming out, could be crudded up too and need a new seal or two.
Of course if you lay eyes on the burner the whole of Sussex will vanish from the map in a mushroom cloud..
At this age though there will be other things to do which a boiler man would be familiar with, so it might be best to get someone in.

 

[Donncha]

Thanks Chris
Yes I am aware of the explosive powers of gas (I used to work for Shell and had some experience at the sharp end) also I don’t want to invalidate my home insurance!!

I do appreciate your point about the pin coming out and would like to have looked at that but did not see how to do it without removing the gas valve (which might have led to the mushroom cloud scenario).

I have nothing against boiler-men but do not know how to find a competent one in my corner of sunny Sussex by the sea. In the case of our Ideal Boiler (mentioned in another thread earlier this year) the managing letting agent (now fired by us) was faced with a boiler problem and very cold and angry tenant last winter. The agent employed 3 different boiler experts to deal with problems (so far as I can determine they were all Corgi registered) and each discovered a different cause of a leak and charged to repair it. This cost us about £450 including VAT and the agent’s commission of an extra 10% on top of the charges invoiced.

One of these “experts” (to deal with a condensation problem in the bedroom) quoted over £1000 to erect a scaffolding and to install a vent in the wall. He had not noticed that this room already had three perfectly good window vents (which the tenant had not thought of using). This particular person was not only a Corgi but also a member of Chek-a-Trade and seemed to have a good rating there.

If I lived in London I know at least two people to get in touch with or as you put it “get someone in”!!! javascript:emoticon('') In the meantime I will try to diagnose the problem to the best of my ability before I get someone in.

Oh, and BTW the aforementioned person after his last “fix” told our ex-agent that the fix was temporary as the boiler had reached the end of its life and quoted nearly £2000 to fit a new one (did not say what model he had in mind!) javascript:emoticon('') Grrr.
Don

 

[Donncha]

better wait for "god" then as most who post on here are only nupty installers and therefore not fit to lick his boots

Yep I was hoping my post might catch “god’s” eye!

I have looked at your past posts (about 1% of the many thousands!) and see you are a plumber and from the looks of your profile an expat brit living in Tennessee who is blessed with a sense of humour. I adore Tn (my eldest daughter now lives the other side of the Great Smokies in NC) and took every possible chance to tarry there in the 80’s when the wife was working in DC. In 3 years we did the Natchez Trace/Tn/Blue Ridge SEVEN times!! On last trip was in my vintage VW van with Guatemalan tags and stopped for gas near Kingsport and an old fellow looking at the plates says: “W’er u gys from?”. We reply “Guatemala”. He says “Ah figer’d u from outerstate”!

I used to consider myself highly literate but had to look up “numpy” and have decided the following definition is nicer than some of the others provided by Google and as it is a neat word will add it to my vocabulary: “Numpty first surfaced on the terraces of west of Scotland football grounds, many many years ago. A player who couldn't hit a cow's arse with a shovel would be a f***ing numpty.
"Awww Jimmy you f************ing numpty!! You couldnae score wi' ma' sister!"

I presume the sister must have been a well known pushover or an easy lay – as a yank might say
Don

 

[Donncha]

I am always frustrated by finding someone has posted on a forum asking for help, help generously provided and then the story goes cold – no conclusion posted, no thanks, no nothing. I try not to be such a “someone” and in this case if anyone searches Google UK for “Biasi 29S no DHW” this topic seems to come up in poll position so I would like to report how the matter ended!

“God” never did respond to my dilemma! However I forgive him as it gave me a few extra days to read old posts (on this and other C/H forums). I now know that my problem has been ventilated a zillion times over the years and any expert on the matter must have got fed up with nupty folk like me who don’t search the past posts!

This forum seems to be light hearted and I apologize if my jokes in my last two posts offended anyone and caused the deadly silence that ensued – no offense intended. I hold all professions in high regard (but some professionals are not always professional). Also, because I am unaccustomed to the nanny-knows-best philosophy in our over-regulated state this is a shock to my system. Of course I am aware of the relative importance of gas safety but putting this in its true perspective it is of insignificant importance
• UK deaths by CO poisoning abt 20 pa (Data from Govt Stats Office - half of these are in Wales or Midlands)
• UK deaths by CO poisoning abt 100 pa (Data from Coroners records includes portable heaters and possible suicides)
• UK deaths by domestic gas explosions, guesstimated, 12 pa
• UK deaths by unlawful killing/murder 1000 pa (approximate data from HM Govt but not based on convictions)
• UK deaths by suicide abt 5000 pa
• UK deaths for lack of organ donors 6000 pa
• UK deaths from road accidents 2900 pa
• UK pedestrians killed mainly by speeding 700 pa (hopefully not speeding white vans)
• Child deaths from illness/malnutrition in third world estimated by WHO 15,000,000 pa
• Adult deaths from illness/malnutrition in third world estimated by WHO 20,000,000 pa

By coincidence MasterOfTheRoles yesterday echoed my thoughts here: (http://boards.fool.co.uk/the-wiring-regulations-stipulate-that-all-newly-12086153.aspx) “If you go anywhere in (mainland) Europe, you will find ordinary, unshuttered, unfused, un-isolation-transformer'd, un-RCD'd mains sockets in every bathroom. Strangely enough, I have managed to survive using these bathrooms on numerous occasions, as, it would seem, have most people - the newspapers are not awash with horror-stories about mass electrocutions of Europeans in their bathrooms...Why don't they just go the whole hog and pass a law banning the use of mains electricity by any member of the general public?”

Back to topic. I decided to order the diaphragm as it only cost a fiver and felt it would be wise to eliminate this as a possible cause. Whilst I was waiting for this to plop thru the door I examined my boiler, downloaded and printed 44 page service manual and was able to take a calm look at the innards and check some electrical circuits and switches. I also spent many more hours reading posts on this and other forums. As a result of this I found
• Some RGI’s say BIASI’s are for the birds
• Some very respected gurus – Agile, Mike4 (http://boards.fool.co.uk/so-there-you-go-my-experience-says-you-can-10914654.aspx) and many others think the opposite.
• I discovered that I was far from alone in thinking that there are plenty of cowboy RGI’s out there and that one just cannot assume that Gas Safe is more than a prima facie guarantee that that a person is honest and capable – let alone he is familiar with any particular make and model of boiler or has an instinct for troubleshooting.
• Someone rubbished BIASI’s support line but both Tony and Mike provided a telephone number and suggested one used it. I did and they are excellent by help centre standards.
• I found my vicarious events with my Ideal boiler earlier this year to be a depressingly common experience of many other people (a boiler engineer thinks he knows what the problem is, changes a part, collects some dosh and the owner goes back upstairs and finds the boiler still has the same problem and possibly a new one has been created)!
• I was alarmed to find that BG engineers are allowed 30/20 minutes for a repair/service. I don’t believe it – a reasonably conscientious bloke doing this kind of work (however fast he works) would have trouble handling 6 calls a day (getting to the job, a cup of coffee, sourcing parts – quite apart from stripping a boiler down, diagnosing, fixing, refilling, packing up, cleaning up, billing and chatting up the lady of the house)!

When the diaphragm fell through the letter box it took me all of 10 minutes to change it (following Tony’s clear instructions from an old post). Them opened the mains and powered the boiler. Bingo! DHW coming out just as it should and C/H ditto.

I was impressed with the solid nature of the diverter valve head – gold standard. The old diaphragm had a 1 inch split close to its circumference. Unfortunately I did not inspect the seating until after it was reassembled but later microscopic examination of the split edges indicated it (or at least part of it) had been split for a long while. Additionally, and most curiously, there was a long standing squarish deformation about 2 x 3mm in the middle of the split as though it had been put together with a small object trapped there. As the neoprene rubber of the diaphragm is 8 years old it would not be surprising to find it brittle or generally distorted. However, it is flexible and looks and feels like new and it would be hard to tear it.

I have concluded that the split was probably at the top of the housing and that the valve was operating for months by pressure (air or air/water) on the white actuator plate. I did not notice any sign that water had been passing the plate (I didn’t specifically look for this but would have probably noticed it) but I did check the pin and its movement and it was bright and shiny like new. Had it passed water it would have exited at the unsealed joint (where the two grub screws are) and I did note that this joint was bright and showed no water marks. This conclusion concurs with a symptom in hindsight – for a long time (months) it has needed a hot tap on full for the DHW to cut in. With the new diaphragm it cuts in with any hot tap opened at a fast dribble.

I do appreciate I was lucky as the cause of my problem might have been something else – such as what ChrisR suggested or possibly something much more sinister.

As I am not a contortionist I was able to determine that I could not possibly check the pin that actuates the DHW micro switch nor could it be worked on without removing the gas valve, an undoubted Corgi job! (I have found posts suggesting this should be checked before bothering to replace diagphram)!

Finally I have learnt a few home truths not commonly known by your average householder:
• A plumber plumbs (but these days installs heating systems – including boilers)
• A heating engineer does the same
• A boiler repair specialist is a different kettle of fish – a 50:50 mixture of knowledge/experience and of INARLU (instict/artistry/luck)
• The first two may or may not be decently trained and possibly registered and the third one probably is. The first two are probably rubbish at fault-tracing but will turn their hands to it when required.
• A replica Gas Safe Card can be ordered on the internet – complete with hologram. This can be easily defeated by a call to GS at 0800 408 5500, however this really doesn’t work as unless you can glance and memorize a 7 figure number you will have to borrow the card long enough to write the number down which will cause the “engineer” to remember he’s late for an urgent service call – and scarper. And yes, it works – I did it last week with a guy trying to collect money for Age Concern (Age UK)!

Don

 

[Agile]

• UK deaths by CO poisoning abt 20 pa (Data from Govt Stats Office - half of these are in Wales or Midlands)
• UK deaths by CO poisoning abt 100 pa (Data from Coroners records includes portable heaters and possible suicides)
• UK deaths by domestic gas explosions, guesstimated, 12 pa
• UK deaths by unlawful killing/murder 1000 pa (approximate data from HM Govt but not based on convictions)
• UK deaths by suicide abt 5000 pa
• UK deaths for lack of organ donors 6000 pa• UK deaths from road accidents 2900 pa
• UK pedestrians killed mainly by speeding 700 pa (hopefully not speeding white vans)

Don

The obvious conclusion is that if you want to live to an Age Concern number of years then you have to avoid suicide and organ donors!

However thats not correct any more because "Age Concern" has merged with "Help the Aged" and both together are now called just "Age UK" which saves a lot of letters and is easier for those with Alzheimer's.
to remember.

Tony

 

[Donncha]

Thank God for someone with a sense of humor Tony.javascript:emoticon('') Personally my tongue is permanently in my cheek and find it hard to take this mad world seriously! If you had the energy to plow thru my post you would see I did note (“Age UK”) after Age Concern as most people still say AC not A-UK - Ditto Corgi not GS. The chap at the door still had an old style AC card pinned to his label! I am at home all the time and thus get a lot of cold callers – doesn’t really worry me as people have to earn a living somehow. However I do fear that some of my more vulnerable contemporaries may get conned and be unable to cope.

You have it all wrong: I am 81 so have lived quite long enough thank you! Enough is enough and I doubt if my organs are any use as are past BBD - but I do carry a donor card.

Suppose all the accident vehicle victims, murder victims, RGI’s and suicidally inclined people were to carry cards it might it might save the 6000 deaths due to lack of organs. “Every little helps” although it might not help the 35 million starvation deaths anually in the developing world. Such statistics turned me off a belief in God – I had been a Malthusian economist for most of my life and seeing Mexico City grow from 9 to 18 million in 20 years was the clincher. The last time I lived there I had a most efficient (but deadly) water heater that burnt sawdust with a dash of kerosene to kick start it. Solid fuel type braseros sitting under a table are also great CO generators – one wonders how so many Spaniards have survived over the years. Or for that matter how did the likes of me survive childhood before the beurocrats invented the rules, regulations and quangos that now govern our lives. I forgot to add in last post the deaths caused by explosions due to LPG in boat bilges – not uncommon, I have seen two spectaculars - why does nanny not ban propane in boats? Oh, and surely the lung cancer deaths amongst RGIs who all seem to smoke exceeds the deaths saved by current tight gas regs?

I was at school in your neck of the woods – PNC as it then was. Fitted lots of gas DHW boilers over the years but combis only a Worcester and a Chauffoteaux in French farmhouses. I had to live with the Chauff for several years and was able to keep it going but considered it crapp. It was under powered and ran too hot (long way to bathroom) and I was forever descaling. Had back problems so got a French plumber to do pipework - he insisted (as they dont know better) on brazing all joints (using oxy-acet cherry red no flux – 100% copper filling rods) and thus left much heat scale crud in system which did not help….

Don