Big Gap Behind New Sash Window Architrave All the Way Around!

[morningster]

Just had a complete new double-glazed sash window fitted into our Victorian terrace property. Original window was single-glazed. After being really chuffed at having a beautiful, brand new energy-efficient window, a closer look revealed that the architrave doesn't sit flush on the wall, as you would expect. There is a 1/2 inch gap between architrave and the wall behind it; I can put my fingers into it and even curl them round to feel into the actual cavity (or aperture) between the box itself and the masonry! There is no apparent draught to be felt from outside, the room feels warmer etc but having a big gap all the way around a window like this is is ridiculous!

And this is was done by a FENSA registered window guy who is a Which Magazine Trusted Trader.

I was originally told, prior to install, that the window would stick out further into the room compared to the original one but I certainly was not told about any gap! I assumed the new architrave would simply be deeper, yet still be flush with the wall.

What has gone wrong here and what should I do about it? The refurb and install job of a total 5 windows is wrapping up today; I still have 25% to pay. Do I demand a re-install before paying up or what?

 

[blup]

Assuming the general workmanship is ok, the gap is because the new architrave is flat but the wall isn't. Maybe some filler or even fillets of wood would do the trick. Do you have a written contract (IIRC trusted traders are required to provide this)?

Blup

 

[Notch7]

What has gone wrong here and what should I do about it? The refurb and install job of a total 5 windows is wrapping up today; I still have 25% to pay. Do I demand a re-install before paying up or what

They havent trimmed up the window properly. Is it a upvc window or timber? -skilled joiners would do it Im sure, upvc installers, maybe not.

The new sash box depth is much bigger so its proud of the internal wall. When the architrave goes on, it needs a 1/2" thick batten fixed to its rear outer edge.

Tell them you want the architraves taken off and redone. Dont accept a naff bead or quadrant added on.

Are they new architraves, or the originals

 

[Gazman16]

Photos would help here

 

[morningster]

Thank you all for your responses.

It's a timber sash and the architrave is new. The window installers have their own joinery workshop.

I've attached pics of the gap problem. From left to right, there's a side view, a top view and a pic of the window itself.



Also, they've supplied a noticeably higher and wider architrave compared to the original, so the left side nosing touches the chimney breast and the whole thing looks huge in proportion to the small bedroom; I can live with that, I suppose, though I don't know why it's so large.

So, get them to remove architrave and increase depth all round? Is it a big pain to remove and refit the architrave?

 

[blup]

Architraves are usually pinned (nailed) on so apart from a little bit of redecoration it shouldn’t be a problem.

The retention of 25% will encourage the installers to complete the job

Blup

 

[Notch7]

Is it a big pain to remove and refit the architrave?

Its less of a pain to get it right first time!

politely say 'you are having giraffe mate, I could drive a bus through there'

On an £8k job (im guessing) they can afford to get it right.

I usually dont supply the trims and mouldings until the windows go in, since theres no way to be sure what section sizes will be needed and probably vary from room to room.

 

[blup]

Will be interesting to see what solution they offer.

Blup

 

[morningster]

Thank you Notch7 and Blup. Your responses gave me extra courage to insist that the only proper way to resolve this matter was to take off the architrave and add battens all round to make up the depth, which the window guy has agreed to do onsite next week; he was trying to get away with just filling the gap. Let's hope he doesn't try to oil out of it!

I also need to bring up the matter of the chunks of masonry that came off when they removed the old box/trim and/or when they installed the new set: no idea why they put the trim back before filling the resulting gaps.. which have been filled with cement and are proud of the wallpapered surface - no filler layer for the self-proclaimed "fanatics of detail"!

They didn't even remove the rad just below the window before working on it and I think the new frame's edge is visible in the gap under the nosing and above the rad, just proud of the wall surface...

Another gap between the nosing and the wall at the extremities and a couple of big holes in the wall just above either end of the architrave on top; turns out this part of the wall above the window is made of wood! (These old Victorian terraces, always a new surprise.)

Honestly, I'm wondering what else might be hidden under the trim...

Add to that... Some of the retro-fitted windows (new slimline DG'd sashes in old frames) require Geoff Capes to open or close them, they are so stiff. Imagine my 80+year-old parents, who live here, trying to do it. And the (external) frame sills are not properly faced so that they are uneven; true, they were eaten up and you could drop coins into the grooves, but I suspect even I could have made a better job with enough filler and a sander.

This is a job that was supposed to take 5-6 days (according to the window man); he and his 2 fellows did it in 3.5 days. Seems like we were squeezed in?

Can't trust anyone anymore, even a vetted and "approved" craftsman.

Your comments, observations, professional opinions, musings etc are muy appreciados!

 

[morningster]

On an £8k job (im guessing) they can afford to get it right.

How did you guess so accurately? Blimey!

 

[xeres]

Thank you all for your responses.

It's a timber sash and the architrave is new. The window installers have their own joinery workshop.

I've attached pics of the gap problem. From left to right, there's a side view, a top view and a pic of the window itself.

View attachment 149220 View attachment 149221 View attachment 149222

Also, they've supplied a noticeably higher and wider architrave compared to the original, so the left side nosing touches the chimney breast and the whole thing looks huge in proportion to the small bedroom; I can live with that, I suppose, though I don't know why it's so large.

So, get them to remove architrave and increase depth all round? Is it a big pain to remove and refit the architrave?

Pointers from above are good and friendly.
The architrave closing the gap from the wall to the front face of the frame should just be removed and repinned to correctly fill that void. Alternatively, another thin trim can be used face over the gap but this would increase the width/height of the window and make it even bigger than it already is.
It may be possible to reduce the size of the window by reducing the size of the architraves closing in the sash boxes - that depends on how deep the sash boxes are though. old sash windows are single paned and new are double glazed - the letter being considerably heavier and needing bigger weights. This can require a bigger box, especially on smaller sash windows.

Either way, they should come back and sort the issues fairy easily and with minimal disruption.

FYI - it’s not usual for joiners to remove rads, that’s a plumbers job. If you contracted with them directly, they should have at least made you aware. If you wet the through a general builder who’s arranging an array of trades, then he should have talked you through it. Either way in truth, it’s probably a negligible issue unless your experiencing a draught.

 

[morningster]

My window guy coming back next week to do all the bits. Hopefully, all goes well...

Would apppreciate your input on a couple of things. What kind of tolerance do you allow for the meeting rails being level, particularly when working on installing new sashes into old frames? There is some amount of unevenness in some of the DG'd retro-fitted windows; I'm not sure how much is regarded as acceptable. Also, one thing that bugs me is the one arched upper sash that has been trimmed on top to fit the window frame arch: even though a template was originally taken of the original sash's arched profile, the installer ended up trimming the new sash to the extent that the height of the top rail is quite noticeably uneven from left to right. Was this the right thing to do? Looks naff when the window is open. How much compromise does one have to make because the property is old and original tolerances might be off or frames might have shifted etc?

 

[Notch7]

How did you guess so accurately? Blimey!

Im in the trade

 

[Notch7]

My window guy coming back next week to do all the bits. Hopefully, all goes well...

Would apppreciate your input on a couple of things. What kind of tolerance do you allow for the meeting rails being level, particularly when working on installing new sashes into old frames? There is some amount of unevenness in some of the DG'd retro-fitted windows; I'm not sure how much is regarded as acceptable. Also, one thing that bugs me is the one arched upper sash that has been trimmed on top to fit the window frame arch: even though a template was originally taken of the original sash's arched profile, the installer ended up trimming the new sash to the extent that the height of the top rail is quite noticeably uneven from left to right. Was this the right thing to do? Looks naff when the window is open. How much compromise does one have to make because the property is old and original tolerances might be off or frames might have shifted etc?

Tricky because the existing windows may be out of square. new sashes have to be made square so it can show up.

Same thing with the arch -the new arch will be made to a true curve.

 

[morningster]

Tricky because the existing windows may be out of square. new sashes have to be made square so it can show up.

Same thing with the arch -the new arch will be made to a true curve.

What, even though it looks like this?



Btw, what's the proper way to fix a gap (seen from outside) that is to one side between lower sash bottom rail and the sill it sits on? Admittedly, the sill is pretty curved/ slanting but don't professional window craftsmen have tricks of the trade to "make good" these anomalies - which have to be expected when working on properties over 100 years old? Seems my window guy only works well when things are straight and square.