BOILER SYSTEM

[Belboz]

I have used this forum many times to solve queries. So can I say thanks to all those people on here who make this such a mine of information. Second, apologies for the length [and probable stupidity] of this question/topic.

I reside in a 2-storey house. Currently, there is a back boiler fitted in the livingroom downstairs. The boiler and hot water/central heating work fine. The cylinder is situated in the bathroom on the first floor. The water tank and F&E tank are above this in the loft space.

I am looking to move the cylinder to the ground floor so I can enlarge the bathroom. The new position of the cylinder would be directly below the current position in the bathroom. The idea being that the existing pipework can be extended in a straight line.

As far as I am aware, even though back boilers are now a 'no-no' under the regs, there is nothing to stop me altering an existing layout. I do not intend to touch the boiler which is annually serviced and [fingers crossed] in fine order. Granted I will have to extend the flow and return pipes where they currently meet the cylinder upstairs.

Point here [and this is my stupidity probably], I am unsure exactly what I have. I BELIEVE I have a fully pumped open vent system. Both hooked pipes are in the relevant position in the loft and the system has two 2-port valves and a pump.

The new position of the cylinder will not reduce the head as this will, in fact, be increased. Is this an issue?

More to the point, as far as I can see, the hot water in the back boiler is pumped upstairs when central heating or hot water is called for. If this IS the case then what problems, if any, would there be in moving the cylinder position?

BUT.... not being sure as to whether this IS the case, I am wondering whether any of my system is 'gravity-based' because, if so, moving the cylinder to the same level [ground floor] of the house could then affect it. The cold water feeds would not be altered because the head would be increased.

I am wondering if the hot water [which comes off the top of the cylinder] pressure would be reduced accordingly.

Lots of idiotic questions I know but you guys apear to be the experts.

Before you baulk at a 'DIYer' thinking about this, rest assured that a proper plumber would be called in to do the work. That is, of course, if regs would allow him to do the work.

You're probably going to say switching to a new combi would be better. However:

(a) I have no gas connection anywhere near a potential combi site

(b) With teenagers, I am not sure the amount of hot water usage would be satsified with a combi

(c) I have been quoted £3.5K for the work and, at present, this is not affordable.

Thanks again,

Now for the 'onslaught'!!!

 

[cozzmic]

As you say it's a 2x2 port MV's then you will have no problem with the circulatiuon down to the new HWC position.
The head will not actually change because it is the height of the cold storage tank that determins the head not the cylinder.
There might be a bit of rebalancing of the system after the alterations as the water has to go further but that is a minor inconveniance.

ps did you get any sleep last night looking at the time of your post

 

[twgas]

are you going to have to move pump and MVs, this may cause probs with air or reverse circulation if not designed/installed correctly, although a decent plumber should not have any trouble.

 

[diverdee]

sounds like u have a typical s plan which should work fine after the work just make sure they cut in some vents where u need them and rebalance as needed.as for the price sounds ott unless there they are realy bad and long pipe runs

 

[Agile]

(b) With teenagers, I am not sure the amount of hot water usage would be satsified with a combi

(c) I have been quoted £3.5K for the work and, at present, this is not affordable.

Thanks again,

Now for the 'onslaught'!!!

A combi boiler will give hot water all day long so I dont see why your teenagers should not be satisfied with that!

That sounds a fairly reasonable quote for what is likely to be quite a lot of work but you could probably get it done for about £2500 using a cheaper boiler.

But that does depend on where you live as prices vary.

Tony

 

[Belboz]

Thanks for all the replies gents [I am making that assumption!!]

Just a couple of points;

I do permanent 12-hour nights so I am a night-owl even when not working!! Hence the time of the post.

What does the balancing involve and what about these 'extra' vents?

Sorry about the confusion over the term 'head'. I was thinking it was the distance from the tank to the base of the cylinder but I was probably thinking about the 'head' for the pressure of the hot water which comes out of the top of the tank!

Problem with teenagers is they generate shedloads of dirty washing
and seem to want to shower/bath 3 times a day

Hence there is often a time when the washing machine is 'permanently' on and the shower and bath are used one after another. I am sure that modern combi systems have improved greatly but I was informed [mis-informed?] that a cylinder setup would be better for the amount of HW usage.

Price-wise, that was EXCLUDING the majority of materials. I was going to buy the boiler and copper pipe myself as I have a mate who works for a plumbing supplies and gets staff discount. I was happy to do this to save on costs but it appears that the labour was the main charge.

I think the issue here was that the only siting of a combi boiler to the external wall would be in the kitchen. Unfortunately, the external wall is on the opposite side to the gas and there are solid floors throughout the ground floor. Any gas pipework would, therefore, take a convoluted route to the combi. I did look at electric boilers coupled with a cylinder but the running costs were also excessive.

Thanks for all the replies. Thank God for sites like this and experts who are prepared to put the time in to answer queries for amateur idots like me!!

 

[Agile]

The prices I quoted were including bits! Yours sounds expensive indeed!

The washing machine does not have to be on at the same time as the shower.

Most modern washing machines only have a cold fill and electrically heat inside. Even so the mains supply has to be able to supply about 4-5 li/min from the mains without causing the hot water to slow down too much.

Anyway the WMC can be put on a timer to bring it on after 1 am or another off peak time.

Tony

 

[gas4you]

I would generally allow 3 days for this type of job, BBU out, HW cyl out and combi in. Possibly 3 1/2 if gas run was awkward.

I charge £300 + VAT/day, so your price as labour only is extremely expensive

 

[Belboz]

Yeah - nice idea about the washing machine. Mine is relatively new and has a hot and cold fill.

You obviously don't have teenage kids - they go through about 3 outfits a day. Washing machine does about 3/4 loads a day.

As for putting it on a timer, who gets it out at 2am when it finishes??

Sorry but getting off topic here....I DO appreciate your input as regards the combi v cylinder debate.

Going back to the price quoted, I got 2 quotes and they came in at £3.2K and £3.5K.

As I said, gas run was going to be an issue. So was ripping out the old back boiler and the fire in front of it.

I guess it's because I'm in London. Not only are things more costly but trying to get a plumber with any interest in doing the job is like finding rocking horse s**t.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Azazel]

I agree with you Belboz, a combi would be a waste of money in your situation.

A few arguments against combi boilers;

More bits and pieces in one place (the boiler) thus more to go wrong. And when a combi breaks down, you could lose both hot water and heating. At least with conventional systems you usually/should have an immersion heater to heat hot water in the cylinder, if/when conventional boiler breaks down.

Combi boilers have to raise temperature of incoming mains water around 30-40 degrees in a short time, this uses an awful lot of gas.

Imagine you go to the toilet, then use the basin to wash your hands, and you've got a combi fitted. So you turn on the tap, combi fires up. Water is heated as it flows through boiler, so your wasting cold water as you wait for hot to come through. Also you are running your boiler at full rate, lots of gas been burnt, then you finally get some hot water. Wash your hands, and turn off the tap. Now the pipe and boiler cool down, and the next person to wash their hands has to go through the same process.

If a system with a cylinder (vented/unvented) is designed and fitted correctly it will give more than ample hot water performance.

Why do Albion advertise the fact that thier cylinders can be used to improve exsisting combi cylinders? (http://www.albionwaterheaters.com/Superduty.html)

Because combi boilers are useless for multi output hot water systems.

As a side note, the Albion Superduty Cylinders are brilliant! Worth every penny.

The only time I would recommend fitting a combi, is for a single occupancy dwelling like a flat, or a small bungalow.

Yes they are great on the central heating side, but then so is a system boiler.

I would always go for recommending a system boiler, and high efficiency cylinder. Usually a Superduty, or a Centre Cyl, which has a 'pancake coil'.

I know I went on a bit, but thats how strongly I feel about combi boilers.

Hope that helps.

 

[cozzmic]

Does the system cope at the moment? If it does just move the HWC downstairs and save yourself a fortune and less upheaval. Balancing is just adjusting the flow of water through the pipes so you get the proper circulation, i think its in the faqs page.
If its a Baxi BBU I would leave it in as they can last for many a year with the proper maintenance and you can change the firefront if you don't like the one you've got.
A combi would be great but the reliability of them to last 10 to 20 years may come into question and generally parts for combis are blimmin expensive.

 

[Belboz]

System copes fine. No problems [touch wood] Nice to see some views echoing my thoughts - bin the combi and move the cylinder.

Is it worth buying a new cylinder, pump, valves and a new controller kit while I am at it? The old one is a manual dial type and I have had to replace the synchron motors on both valves over the years [even as an amateur idiot I can do that]

I have a few bob I put aside before getting the combi quote so I can affor to get a new cylinder, valves and a new controller kit.

If so, any ideas on best makes i.e. cylinder, pump, kit??

Oh and any decent plumber recommendations in SE London area would be good [I appreciate you may not be able to say on here!!!]

I'm a great believer in paying good money for a good job.

I want to take up plumbing when I retire from my current job and I've begun to do some studying. I, therefore, fully appreciate that plumbing [and all the associated stuff] isn't something for the gifted amateur. Takes application and a lot of exams!!!

Okay so I can solder and bend pipe and do some of the basics but I know my limits when it comes to the 'proper' stuff like CH systems.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Oh..and yes it is a BAXI BBU with an old 50's style fire in front!!!

 

[diverdee]

3.5 grand is a lot to move a tank would expect a new system for that.if hot water is a issue have u ever thought of coupling 2 tanks and going unvented much better system and never run out of hot water plus full pressure at taps.but just to move a tank to the room below the price is way out .for that money would drive n do it my self lol

 

[Agile]

I would generally agree that a cylinder system is often better if there are several people living there.

However in your case you will need a new cylinder and a new boiler both in a new position.

It may well be that a high output combi boiler will be a more economic solution but that depends on the mains flow rate as to whether its fesible.

Take that anti combi posting with a pinch of salt! Some of those allegations dont stand up to investigation!

Tony

 

[Belboz]

diverdee...bit of confusion there....the £3.5K quoted was to fit a new combi boiler and do away with the current setup altogether.

Haven't been quoted for the cylinder move yet but I am certain it will be cheaper.......