Building notice for HMO

[Suited72]

I purchased a derelict end terrace to rent out rooms. There are 4 rooms being used as bedrooms so it falls under normal domestic regs.

Before starting the project I rang local council, told them what I was doing and asked if I needed any regs. They said I didn't need regs but recommended a meeting with environmental health which I've fully complied with. They also asked if I was doing any major alterations, I said no.

With project nearer completion, I decided ide like to put a 1 metre Worktop in each room. Called council to check that wouldn't require any fire regs and they said they'de send out an inspector.

He arrived and said I needed regs from the start and should have applied. He's happy with what's been done but he wants me to apply for building regs retrospectively and approve them.

Alarm bells rang when he said there is no specific fee listed for what I'de be applying for and also when he started asking me about what sound and fire protection was in ceiling and I had read elsewhere that a standard house didn't require sound or fire protection in the ceiling. When I said this he said that although it wasn't a requirement and he wouldn't be testing levels of sound and fire protection - he still wants to see it. But I couldn't find any example of what level it should be up to and if he's not testing it for its sound and fire properties then how is this 'law' or 'reg' written?

Apparently I should have informed regs and applied for :

altering the thermal properties of the building (I removed plaster, studded, batoned, 25mm PIR and boarded external walls, d&d internal)

Did a complete rewire

Put up 2 stud walls

Changes he's made are that I've got to pay a fee, I've got to put a wired heat&smoke in the kitchen (there were 4 smokes in the hallways) 30 min fire doors and frames all around, double acoustic board and lag ceilings. He also said he'd like to see a partition between the toilet and the bath, but he did say that this wasn't a requirement.

I can't find any of this online, if it was being changed to 2 flats or a new build then yes....but this is purely being used as a normal domestic house. Is this all normal?

In future I could get round all this by doing no updates to a property and leaving it as it was built. It's really annoying me paying for application & inspection that we're never done...

Thanks

 

[tony1851]

I suspect you're being misinformed here.

HMOs are no different to normal houses when it comes to building regulations, on the basis that unrelated people are sharing amenities such as kitchen and bathroom.

In particular, you don't need the E1 sound insulation standard for walls and floors (which can prove very expensive)
You also shouldn't have to fit fire doors (assuming it's not a 3-storey house).
You would have to upgrade the walls if you have stripped the existing plaster off.
But as regards the other stuff, I would go into it more carefully with them rather than just doing what you're told.

 

[Suited72]

Thanks. Ok. So he's stated he wanted fire doors and frames, heat alarm in kitchen, fire&sound between floors (it's just 2 storey) and he wants to see the lec and gas certificate. All to which I said 'ok' seeing that I didn't want to argue with him when I had no documentation to check anything he was asking for. It is going to have lec&gas certs. The heat in the kitchen is being done and The original plan was to lag between floors and use standard 12mm boards mounted to sound breaker bars. I didn't want to put fire doors all round and Ide bought the bars & boards for the soundproofing so didn't really wanna do his way....

He's given me a form headed 'building notice' to submit to the council along with the fee which he's going to calculate. Should I do that?

I have improved the thermal properties of the building substantially, u said I had to upgrade them - did I have to apply / submit a building notice though? I can't find that information on any building control website.

If I don't submit the building notice form can it cause me problems?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Apparently I should have informed regs and applied for :

altering the thermal properties of the building

Yup - that was notifiable.

Did a complete rewire

That too.

I can't find any of this online,

Click.

if it was being changed to 2 flats or a new build then yes....but this is purely being used as a normal domestic house. Is this all normal?

It's not a normal domestic house, it's an HMO.

Don't get confused between the Building Regulations, and whatever licensing regime your particular local authority have decided to put in place for HMOs.

In future I could get round all this by doing no updates to a property and leaving it as it was built.

No you couldn't.

It's really annoying me paying for application & inspection that we're never done...

If you find complying with your legal obligations as a landlord annoying, then maybe being a landlord is not for you.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It is going to have lec&gas certs.

If it's been rewired, why doesn't it already have the former?

If you had the work done by a registered electrician then he should have given you an EIC, and within 30 days notified the work to the council. If it's been more than 30 days, or if you don't have the EIC, rattle his cage.

If the work was not done by a registered electrician then the law required that the work be notified to the council in advance, at which point you would have had to do whatever your particular LABC says is the way they want to ensure compliance with Part P. If that was how the work was done and you did not notify it in advance, how are you now going to get the necessary certificates?

 

[Suited72]

1st fix of rewire is complete

Yup - that was notifiable

ok - that was what I've already been told by BC. I was asking where I find that information. And on the rewire, I can't find that on my labc nor on the planning portal it sends me to

Bear in mind I called my labc and said I'm thinking of changing the house to HMO and they reverted me to environmental health. They were the ones that told me HMO fall under same building control conditions as a normal domestic dwelling hence I'm calling it a normal house rather than a flat, bedsit etc.

No you couldn't.

Am I forced to update my properties then? If I buy another and don't insulate or rewire what would be the problem?

If you find complying with your legal obligations as a landlord annoying, then maybe being a landlord is not for you.

I am a landlord and I'm asking for my legal obligations. I'm even begging you for them. And If I ring my labc and they don't have the time or knowledge to advise me on legal obligations then surely being building control isn't for them?

More importantly your link (which I really was hoping was the info I want) doesn't take me to any page which describes why I must put fire doors/frames, sound&fire between floors, kitchen mains heats or partition walls between the toilet and bath in a 2 storey, 4 person HMO. So what was the point of it?

 

[tony1851]

@suited.

Building control cannot ask you for any work which would not be required for an ordinary C3 dwelling.
With regard to sound insulation, some inspectors are still applying the 'rooms for residential purposes' definition to HMOs, and this is not now the case. The sound insulation requirements are no different than for an ordinary dwelling, so he should not be asking for anything in this respect.

As regards fire, again a normal two-storey dwelling does not require fire doors and they should not be asking for this. Your housing dept will insist on reasonable fire precautions and means of escape, but this just entails complying with Part B for dwellings.

It seems that your BCO is requiring you to apply the whole gamut of the regs just because the house is being let out. As an example, why hasn't he asked you to bring the stairs up to current standards (assuming it's an old house)? Or insulate the roof to current standards etc.
I would write to him and ask him to confirm - in writing - what regs he wants compliance with, and under what authority. Advise that you intend taking this further if he is exceeding his remit.

(Note that your housing dept can insist on certain additional things such as gas/elec certs, and incidentals such as fire blanket and kitchen heat detector etc,but not wholesale compliance with all current building regs)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1st fix of rewire is complete

Who did that? That's Design & Construction - will the person who did it be able to sign an Electrical Installation Certificate?

Yup - that was notifiable

ok - that was what I've already been told by BC. I was asking where I find that information.

In the Building Regulations.

In the guide to the Building Regulations.

In Approved Document P.

And on the rewire, I can't find that on my labc nor on the planning portal it sends me to

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/electrics/

Bear in mind I called my labc and said I'm thinking of changing the house to HMO and they reverted me to environmental health. They were the ones that told me HMO fall under same building control conditions as a normal domestic dwelling hence I'm calling it a normal house rather than a flat, bedsit etc.

OK - I see what you mean.

Yes, Building Regulations are the same.

But no, it is not being used as a normal domestic house - it's an HMO, and, entirely separate from the Building Regulations, your council has licensing powers under the Housing Act 2004.

Am I forced to update my properties then?

AIUI, if your council uses the powers it has for regulating HMOs to require you to fit smoke alarms, or have the electrics inspected, or install soundproofing etc, then there's nothing you can do.

I am a landlord and I'm asking for my legal obligations. I'm even begging you for them.

Have you asked your solicitor?

And If I ring my labc and they don't have the time or knowledge to advise me on legal obligations then surely being building control isn't for them?

HMO licensing is nothing to do with Building Control.

More importantly your link (which I really was hoping was the info I want) doesn't take me to any page which describes why I must put fire doors/frames, sound&fire between floors, kitchen mains heats or partition walls between the toilet and bath in a 2 storey, 4 person HMO. So what was the point of it?

The point of it was to provide you with links to information about HMOs, as you said you couldn't find anything online.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

@suited.

Building control cannot ask you for any work which would not be required for an ordinary C3 dwelling.
With regard to sound insulation, some inspectors are still applying the 'rooms for residential purposes' definition to HMOs, and this is not now the case. The sound insulation requirements are no different than for an ordinary dwelling, so he should not be asking for anything in this respect.

As regards fire, again a normal two-storey dwelling does not require fire doors and they should not be asking for this. Your housing dept will insist on reasonable fire precautions and means of escape, but this just entails complying with Part B for dwellings.

a house Let to more than 3 non-related people living in a house, will need to be amended to meet the needs of the amount of people residing in the premises, as stipulated by the local council, and sometimes these may vary.

Generally, most of the changes required are with regards to fire safety. Your local council will have a document that can usually be downloaded, off their website, or a booklet you can collect with regards to HMO properties. They estimate that to bring a typical 3 bed semi up to the regulations for HMO it can cost in the region of £10,000+, so be aware of that.

If you are letting a standard 3 bed semi to a group of 3 people sharing, then this will constitute a HMO property (non-licensable) and may require, mains Grade D fire system installing, thumb latches on all doors, half hour resistant doors throughout, self closing devices on all doors, fire doors on the kitchens

It seems that your BCO is requiring you to apply the whole gamut of the regs just because the house is being let out. As an example, why hasn't he asked you to bring the stairs up to current standards (assuming it's an old house)? Or insulate the roof to current standards etc.
I would write to him and ask him to confirm - in writing - what regs he wants compliance with, and under what authority. Advise that you intend taking this further if he is exceeding his remit.

(Note that your housing dept can insist on certain additional things such as gas/elec certs, and incidentals such as fire blanket and kitchen heat detector etc,but not wholesale compliance with all current building regs)

Bear in mind that the OP is renovating/converting a derelict property to become an HMO - there may be quite a few current regulations which apply.

 

[tony1851]

Agreed that housing departments can make certain additional requirements, but these do not need to go beyond building regulations.

Generally they ask for a minimum provision of amenities such as baths, whbs, wcs etc (though 1 bathroom for 4 people would be fine), and suitable cooking facilities, and areas for storing, preparing and eating meals. They would also require a few additional fire-safety measures, eg a fire blanket or CO2 extinguisher in the kitchen, and adequate heating/ventilating.

Beyond that, as long as the house is not > 2 storeys, they cannot ask for retrospective upgrading in terms of building regulations.

Note that the OP was concerned about building regulations, and that the guy who visited was an inspector. This inspector clearly does not know the law. As an example, he suggested partitioning the bathroom to give separate wc.

Not only is this not required under building regs, it would also be wrong, as it would make the position as regards Part M (Disabled Acess) worse than it is at present by making the wc space smaller.

FWIW my advice to OP would be to complete the b/n form for the thermal insulation upgrade, and pay the fee, but to refuse to put in fire doors, or full sound insulation.

 

[Suited72]

Thanks for the link to planning portal on electrics - it is helpful.

"In relation to electrical safety this means that an electrician who is registered by an organisation authorised by the Secretary of State and is able to certify the work carried out is safe, without you having to notify Building Control. Once works are complete the electrician will arrange for you to receive a building regulations compliance certificate within 30 days of the completion of the work"

So that's the rewire issue solved as my electrician will self cert.

I didn't ask on here for any info on HMO, I have an unlicensed HMO which I had been told by the council fell under building regulations of a normal house. I knew I had to do a fire safety inspection and that was fine.

My question was if it falls under control regs of normal house, why are they making me do fire, sound (to a made up standard IE he wants to see some but doesn't have a level I have to meet) and all the other stuff which I couldn't find info for.

It seems that I have fallen foul notice to regs on the changes to thermal properties, as I've said I won't make the mistake of upgrading the thermal properties again. I took it upon myself to bring this property close to new build regs because it's an investment, think I'm starting to understand why landlords rent out uninsulated damp ridden pits, including the council. For what I did to that house labc should have said great, this is exactly what we are looking for and instead they've totally alienated me.

By the way, regarding roof insulation, he has made me lag 300mm in the loft. I forgot this, but again I was prepared to do this anyway.

FWIW my advice to OP would be to complete the b/n form for the thermal insulation upgrade, and pay the fee, but to refuse to put in fire doors, or full sound insulation

That's how I'm going to proceed. Thanks for both ur help.[/quote]

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Agreed that housing departments can make certain additional requirements, but these do not need to go beyond building regulations.

My understanding of the Housing Act 2004 is that they have the right to make other requirements.

Beyond that, as long as the house is not > 2 storeys, they cannot ask for retrospective upgrading in terms of building regulations.

No, but I think they have powers under the Housing Act 2004 - nothing to do with Building Regulations.

Note that the OP was concerned about building regulations,

It's by no means clear to me that the council are not imposing requirements based on their rules for HMOs, not Building Regulations. The OP may think that only the Building Regulations are of concern to him, but I fear he is mistaken.

and that the guy who visited was an inspector. This inspector clearly does not know the law. As an example, he suggested partitioning the bathroom to give separate wc.

Separate bathrooms/WCs might be something the council like to see for HMOs.

Not only is this not required under building regs, it would also be wrong, as it would make the position as regards Part M (Disabled Acess) worse than it is at present by making the wc space smaller.

Not necessarily - it might be a spacious room, and it might be that no disabled person could ever gain access to it anyway.

And anyway - it would not be the first time that one piece of legislation conflicted with another.

FWIW my advice to OP would be to complete the b/n form for the thermal insulation upgrade, and pay the fee, but to refuse to put in fire doors, or full sound insulation.

Mine would be to follow your earlier suggestion of getting in writing exactly what they want done, and on what legal basis, and then talking to his solicitor about it.

 

[tony1851]

Not only is this not required under building regs, it would also be wrong, as it would make the position as regards Part M (Disabled Acess) worse than it is at present by making the wc space smaller.

Not necessarily - it might be a spacious room, and it might be that no disabled person could ever gain access to it anyway.

No. Regardless of the ease of access - or otherwise - to an existing bathroom, Approved Document M makes it clear that the access situation must not be made any worse than that existing.
Logic states that access to a wc in a larger space would be easier than access to a wc in a smaller space. The building inspector here has clearly got it wrong.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So that's the rewire issue solved as my electrician will self cert.

Excellent - that's one box ticked.

I didn't ask on here for any info on HMO, I have an unlicensed HMO which I had been told by the council fell under building regulations of a normal house.

It does - everyone keeps telling you that the Building Regulations are not the issue here.

It's an HMO, and even though it's unlicensed that does not mean that it is exempt from the provisions of the Housing Act 2004 which apply to HMOs.


You should join a landlord's association and take proper legal advice from your solicitor.

My question was if it falls under control regs of normal house, why are they making me do fire, sound (to a made up standard IE he wants to see some but doesn't have a level I have to meet) and all the other stuff which I couldn't find info for.

Possibly because that's what they want you to do as it's an HMO.

You'll find out when you ask them to tell you in writing exactly what they want done, and on what legal basis.

It seems that I have fallen foul notice to regs on the changes to thermal properties, as I've said I won't make the mistake of upgrading the thermal properties again.

The mistake you really need to avoid making again is renovating properties and renting them out when you are ignorant of the regulations which apply.

FWIW my advice to OP would be to complete the b/n form for the thermal insulation upgrade, and pay the fee, but to refuse to put in fire doors, or full sound insulation

That's how I'm going to proceed. Thanks for both ur help.

I really do think that before you go toe-to-toe with the council you should find out what legal legs your respective toes are on. Speak to your solicitor about what your council can, and does, do about your type of HMO in that area.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No. Regardless of the ease of access - or otherwise - to an existing bathroom, Approved Document M makes it clear that the access situation must not be made any worse than that existing.
Logic states that access to a wc in a larger space would be easier than access to a wc in a smaller space. The building inspector here has clearly got it wrong.

Part M does not apply to an extension of or material alteration of a dwelling.