Building Regulations wording

[ban-all-sheds]

For good measure I've also asked why such work, in fact any work, has never been notifiable in Schedule 2 exempt buildings. One of those could quite legitimately contain a bath or shower room - the only thing it may not have is sleeping accommodation, but because it's a detached single storey building, having a floor area which does not exceed 30m2, which contains no sleeping accommodation and is a building—
(a) no point of which is less than one metre from the boundary of its curtilage; or
(b) which is constructed substantially of non-combustible material,

you don't need approval to do anything in it which you would need if it were, for example, 5.1m x 6m instead of 5 x 6.

It seems to be going from bad to worse.

The view of the Department for Communities and Local Government is that because Regulation 9 says this:

[code:1]

9.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3) and regulation 21(1), these Regulations do not apply to—

(a) the erection of any building or extension of a kind described in Schedule 2; or

(b) the carrying out of any work to or in connection with such a building or extension,
if after the carrying out of that work it is still a building or extension of a kind
described in that Schedule.


(2) The requirements of paragraphs G1 and G3(2) and (3) of Schedule 1 apply—

(a) to any greenhouse which receives a cold or hot water supply from a source shared with
or located inside a dwelling; and

(b) to—

(i) any small detached building falling within class 6 in Schedule 2; and

(ii) any extension of a building falling within class 7 in Schedule 2,

which in either case receives a cold or hot water supply from a source shared with
or located inside any building other than a building or extension of a kind described
in Schedule 2.

(3) The requirements of Part P of Schedule 1 apply to—

(a) any greenhouse used for domestic purposes;

(b) any small detached building falling within class 6 in Schedule 2; and

(c) any extension of a building falling within class 7 in Schedule 2,
which in any case receives its electricity from a source shared with or located inside
a dwelling.

[/code:1]

And 12(6A) says

[code:1]

A person intending to carry out building work in relation to which Part P of Schedule 1 imposes a
requirement is required to give a building notice or deposit full plans where the work consists of—

(a) the installation of a new circuit;

(b) the replacement of a consumer unit; or

(c) any addition or alteration to existing circuits in a special location.

[/code:1]


12(6A) means that Schedule 2 buildings are not exempt from notification because 9(3) says that Part P applies to them.

 

[JohnW2]

It seems to be going from bad to worse. ... The view of the Department for Communities and Local Government is that because Regulation 9 says this: ... And 12(6A) says ... 12(6A) means that Schedule 2 buildings are not exempt from notification because 9(3) says that Part P applies to them.

As I said when you recently mentioned this, I think you may be getting forgetful - because I'm pretty sure that it was you who, some time ago, pointed out to me that Part P (and one other Part of the Building Regs, I forget which) were 'exempt from the exemptions' for small buildings, wasn't it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes - exempt from the exemption in (9).

But that means (meant?) that they did not benefit from the blanket exemption from the Building Regulations with respect to the requirements of Part P (and G1, G3 etc).

I did believe they were exempt from notification because of what (9) says.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes - exempt from the exemption in (9). But that means (meant?) that they did not benefit from the blanket exemption from the Building Regulations with respect to the requirements of Part P (and G1, G3 etc).
I did believe they were exempt from notification because of what (9) says.

I see, but that would not have made a lot of sense, would it? (not that 'making sense' is necessarily a very good criterion when looking at these regs!). Having gone out of their way to specifically make Part P (and G1 etc.) applicable to buildings which were exempt from all other parts of the Building Regs, it would seem to make sense that the same notification requirements (for work covered by Part P) would apply as would apply if the work were done anywhere else - which appears to be what you're now agreeing is the case.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It would also have made sense to word Regulation 9 properly - the current reasoning is very circuitous, and was even more so before the 2012 amendment to Regulation 12.

 

[JohnW2]

It would also have made sense to word Regulation 9 properly - the current reasoning is very circuitous, and was even more so before the 2012 amendment to Regulation 12.

Agreed - but I do think that it makes sense (and would be 'expected') that any work subject to Part P (even if by virtue of some circuitous regulations) would be subject to the same notification requirements as any other work subject to Part P, don't you?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What makes sense, and what they actually write down are two different things. How many times have you, I, and others pointed out that Part P has nothing to do with notification, that they are separate parts of the Regulations, that Part P applies to everything but notification does not?

 

[JohnW2]

What makes sense, and what they actually write down are two different things. How many times have you, I, and others pointed out that Part P has nothing to do with notification, that they are separate parts of the Regulations, that Part P applies to everything but notification does not?

As you say, they certainly are separate things, but they are intimately associated with one another. There clearly would be no point (or 'sense') in having to notify electrical work which was not covered by Part P (what would be the point?). 12(6A) is clear enough in requiring notification of any work to which Part P does apply and which falls into one of the three categories of work specified. The two things are therefore inextricably associated, even if different.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes, but Part P doesn't say anything about it leading to a requirement to comply with 12(6A).

And 9 is also very clear. 9(1) says that subject to 9(2) & 9(3), these Regulations do not apply to Schedule 2 exempt buildings. And 9(3) says that Part P is the exception to that, not Part P and 12(6A).

 

[JohnW2]

Yes, but Part P doesn't say anything about it leading to a requirement to comply with 12(6A). ... And 9 is also very clear. 9(1) says that subject to 9(2) & 9(3), these Regulations do not apply to Schedule 2 exempt buildings. And 9(3) says that Part P is the exception to that, not Part P and 12(6A).

True - it should say the latter.

Kind Regards, John

 

[securespark]

Glad that's settled then!

 

[JohnW2]

Glad that's settled then!

Only in our minds - BAS is right that there is a fundamental contradiction in the Building regs. One bit says that none of the Building Regulations other than Part P, G1 & G3 apply to small exempt buildings - meaning that the part of the regulations [ 12(6A) ] requiring notification of certain electrical works does not apply to such buildings. However, the bit about notification of electrical work says that it applies to anything which is subject to Part P - thus including those exempt buildings. My version of common sense suggests that they did intend that the notification rules should apply to such buildings, but I guess that one could really 'pay your money and make your choice' as to which of the contradictory statements you wish to use!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

With British law it is the courts that decide. So once some one is taken to court and a judgement is made then the meaning will be clarified. If people are not following the regulations and they are not taken to court then there is no point in having the regulations.

There are court cases for people who have done grossly sub-standard work and where they have claimed to be scheme members and were not but there seems to be a complete lack of cases where it was just not notified never mind where with some debatable section it was not notified.

So there seems to be very little point in the debate since those who would need to initiate a court case do not seem interested.

 

[JohnW2]

With British law it is the courts that decide. ... So there seems to be very little point in the debate since those who would need to initiate a court case do not seem interested.

That's true. However, this particular issue is very different from the usual debate about the interpretation of 'grey areas'. In the present case, there is actually a contradiction in the law (in England) - one bit says that some electrical works (the usual ones) in small 'exempt' buildings (like small sheds) have to be notified, just as they would in a house. However, another bit of the law says that they don't. It's all very well for a self-certifying electrician, who can take the 'cautious' approach of notifying, at minimal cost, but for anyone else (if they wish to comply with the law), knowing whether or not work is notifiable can make a difference of hundreds of pounds.

AFAICS, for you, in Wales, you probably don't have the former of those two bits (I don't have the old/Welsh wording to hand). If that's true, the only bit of the law you have says that works (of any sort) in such an 'exempt' building are exempt from the part of the regulations which requires notification.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Well - the Govt department concerned are in no doubt that by a convoluted path we arrive at the position where work in exempt buildings is as notifiable as the same work in dwellings.

I can't help feeling that if everybody here was convinced that Reg. 9 meant what it says, and that I presented the convoluted path via Part P and back to 12(6A) as proof that they were wrong I'd be shouted down.

Whilst I believe that the DCLG are sincere in their desire for Schedule 2 buildings not to be exempt from notification, and in their belief that that's what they've written into law, I'm appalled at how badly they have done it. One major problem that I see is that if you start processing the Regulations, as soon as you get to (9) you look to Schedule 2 to determine what that means, and then if applicable you skip everything else and go to Part G and/or Part P to see what they require. You'll never even encounter 12(6A) because by then you've already encountered a regulation which says that your building is exempt from everything except G1/G3(2)/G3(3)/P1.

12(6A) may refer to P1, but there's nothing in P1 which leads you back to 12(6A).