Electrical Competent Person

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http://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/Regulations-Explained

would you agree that the list of notifiable work (England) has been expanded for the benefit of the schemes in that the last three are not in fact notifiable?

circuit alteration or addition in a special location*
installation of one or more new circuits
installation of a replacement consumer unit (fuse box)
rewire of all circuits
partial rewire
new full electrical installation (new build)





For information, the Building Regulation - the actual law:

(6A) A person intending to carry out building work in relation to which Part P of Schedule 1 imposes a requirement is required to give a building notice or deposit full plans where the work consists of—
(a)the installation of a new circuit;
(b)the replacement of a consumer unit; or
(c)any addition or alteration to existing circuits in a special location.”
 
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would you agree that the list of notifiable work (England) has been expanded for the benefit of the schemes in that the last three are not in fact notifiable?
circuit alteration or addition in a special location*
installation of one or more new circuits
installation of a replacement consumer unit (fuse box)
rewire of all circuits
partial rewire
new full electrical installation (new build)
In a 'literal' sense, you're obviously correct, but I suppose those 'extra three' (which, as you say, do not explicitly exist in the Building Rgs) are just their interpretation of the first three.

I would say that the last one is non-contentious. A 'new full electrical installation' clearly involves 'new circuits'. The other two 'added' ones are much more contentious, and often debated here - it seems that many self-cert electricians (but perhaps not so many non-self-cert ones or DIYers!) would argue that a 'complete rewire' counts as 'new circuits' (and, in practice, is very likely to be associated with a {notifiable} CU replacement, anyway).

'Partial re-wire' seems to be the most iffy, since it could mean anything! Even pre-April 2013, replacement of individual 'damaged' (by the passage of time?!) cables was not notifiable, and I think that many would feel that, now, an appreciable amount of wiring (of existing circuits) could be replaced without the work becoming notifiable.

Kind Regards, John
 
Yes, I agree.

Regarding the last (newbuild), I presume this would always be the responsibility of the Building Inspector for the building and consequently never involve any of the schemes.

I just got the impression that the schemes do not want to state that 'this site' is irrelevant unless your work involves (only) 'the first three'.

Their interpretation of the first three is not necessary.


Also included is:

What should I do if the work is non-notifiable in England?

If you determine that the work is not subject to notification under Building Regulations, we strongly recommend that you use a competent, registered electrical installer for safety reasons.


which is not necessarily appropriate.
 
Yes, I agree. Regarding the last (newbuild), I presume this would always be the responsibility of the Building Inspector for the building and consequently never involve any of the schemes.
Is that how they all do it? I wonder if some authorities might allow the electrical work of a new build to be self-certified, to reduce the amount of effort they have to expend?
I just got the impression that the schemes do not want to state that 'this site' is irrelevant unless your work involves (only) 'the first three'.
Well, "they wouldn't, would they?" !
Their interpretation of the first three is not necessary.
Much the same answer!
Also included is:
What should I do if the work is non-notifiable in England?
If you determine that the work is not subject to notification under Building Regulations, we strongly recommend that you use a competent, registered electrical installer for safety reasons.

which is not necessarily appropriate.
Quite so - except as 'promotional copy' :) To be fair, I suppose that registration with a CPS is the closest we have to any handle on 'competence' (even if it is far from flawless) - so, in that sense, I suppose what they are recommending could be said to be the 'safest' option/course available to J Public.

Kind Regards, John
 
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Regarding the last (newbuild), I presume this would always be the responsibility of the Building Inspector for the building and consequently never involve any of the schemes.
Compliance with Part P still required, and having the work done by an electrician who can self-certify is still an option.
 
Regarding the last (newbuild), I presume this would always be the responsibility of the Building Inspector for the building and consequently never involve any of the schemes.
Compliance with Part P still required,
Yes, of course. ?

and having the work done by an electrician who can self-certify is still an option.
I suppose it would and that is what John had in mind but would it not have already been paid for through the LABC.
 
... and having the work done by an electrician who can self-certify is still an option.
I suppose it would and that is what John had in mind but would it not have already been paid for through the LABC.
I was actually wondering whether, perhaps, some LABCs may permit one not to pay for the electrical part of the project/build (i.e. 'give a discount') if that work is going to be undertaken by someone who can self-certify.

Kind Regards, John
 
There is no need to notify in some cases any of the items since they have called it a dwelling and that would include boats and caravans which are not buildings so do not come under building regulations.

Also it should not say simply all electrical work it should say all electrical work started after date (2005 I think). I am not even sure of date as seem to think there is a limit to which planning permission goes back seem to remember 10 years?

Building Regulations Compliance Certificate is not required either you can have a Completion Certificate instead.

In other word one can poke holes in the whole document.

However any document designed to make things simple for the layman is going to have some errors where it can be miss read. It is not a government document and anyone can publish a web page and there is no need for that page to be correct.

We have written many times on this forum working out the limits and before the English regulations changed it was not too hard as items where selected as not requiring notification all the rest required it. But now reversed and items are selected as requiring notification and the government has not defined many of the items so it is a let the court decide.
 
We have written many times on this forum working out the limits and before the English regulations changed it was not too hard as items where selected as not requiring notification all the rest required it. But now reversed and items are selected as requiring notification and the government has not defined many of the items so it is a let the court decide.
When they decided, rightly or wrongly, to considerably reduce the number of things that were to be notifiable in England, I think the 'reversal' made total sense - a list of the things which are now not notifiable in England would go on for ever, and undoubtedly would miss some things!

You are right that some things are not adequately defined, hence creating scope for debate and 'wriggling', but the same was true of the previous version (still current in Wales) - for example, we had plenty of discussions about 'replacements' (maybe with something 'rather different'!), the meaning of a 'damaged cable', and some rather silly discussions as to whether the connection of something to the load side of an FCU was also non-notifiable (as well as installation of the FCU itself)!!

I would think that there are probably only two main things that need defining/clarifying in relation to the (England) notification rules - a sensible and usable definition of 'new circuit' and clarification that the installation of a new CU (even if it is not 'replacing' an existing one) is notifiable! ... not too long ago I saw an ancient installation which still has no CU - just three or four cast iron switch-fuses. Under the present rules as written (England), one could probably rip those out and install a CU without notification - since there is no CU 'to replace'!!

Kind Regards, John
 
Reminds me of the time when it was illegal to store more than 5 litres of distilled water anywhere in London without a special permit issued by The Greater London Council.

There was a list of permitted chemicals that could be stored in bulk without applying for a permit and as I recall de-ionised water was included but distilled water was not included.
 
would you agree that the list of notifiable work (England) has been expanded for the benefit of the schemes in that the last three are not in fact notifiable?
circuit alteration or addition in a special location*
installation of one or more new circuits
installation of a replacement consumer unit (fuse box)
rewire of all circuits
partial rewire
new full electrical installation (new build)
In a 'literal' sense, you're obviously correct, but I suppose those 'extra three' (which, as you say, do not explicitly exist in the Building Rgs) are just their interpretation of the first three.

I would say that the last one is non-contentious. A 'new full electrical installation' clearly involves 'new circuits'. The other two 'added' ones are much more contentious, and often debated here - it seems that many self-cert electricians (but perhaps not so many non-self-cert ones or DIYers!) would argue that a 'complete rewire' counts as 'new circuits' (and, in practice, is very likely to be associated with a {notifiable} CU replacement, anyway).

'Partial re-wire' seems to be the most iffy, since it could mean anything! Even pre-April 2013, replacement of individual 'damaged' (by the passage of time?!) cables was not notifiable, and I think that many would feel that, now, an appreciable amount of wiring (of existing circuits) could be replaced without the work becoming notifiable.

Kind Regards, John

I wonder what the odds are, on an enthusiastic DIY bonanza weekend of accidentally banging a nail through every cable in the house and having to replace the damaged sections?
 
I wonder what the odds are, on an enthusiastic DIY bonanza weekend of accidentally banging a nail through every cable in the house and having to replace the damaged sections?
That question is probably now only relevant in Wales. One can certainly interpret the current English rules as saying that one could replace every single bit of cable in the house, even if not damaged, without having created any 'new circuits' - hence not notifiable.

Kind Regards, John
 
Reminds me of the time when it was illegal to store more than 5 litres of distilled water anywhere in London without a special permit issued by The Greater London Council. There was a list of permitted chemicals that could be stored in bulk without applying for a permit and as I recall de-ionised water was included but distilled water was not included.
A more serious example of this perhaps relates to the Class A, B and C drugs specified in relation to the Misuse of Drugs Act. These are explicit lists of 'illegal' (without prescription, where appropriate) drugs/substances - so if something is not yet in the list, it's not illegal. In recent years, they've tried to strengthen the Act by including quite a lot of chemical detail about molecular variants which are also 'banned' - but it remains the case that if someone comes up with a drug/substance/variant which the Act has 'not yet thought of', then it does not become illegal unless/until the law/list is actually revised. A lot of the so-called 'legal highs' may eventually get onto one or other of the lists.

Kind Regards, John
 
Reminds me of the time when it was illegal to store more than 5 litres of distilled water anywhere in London without a special permit issued by The Greater London Council. There was a list of permitted chemicals that could be stored in bulk without applying for a permit and as I recall de-ionised water was included but distilled water was not included.
A more serious example of this perhaps relates to the Class A, B and C drugs specified in relation to the Misuse of Drugs Act. These are explicit lists of 'illegal' (without prescription, where appropriate) drugs/substances - so if something is not yet in the list, it's not illegal. In recent years, they've tried to strengthen the Act by including quite a lot of chemical detail about molecular variants which are also 'banned' - but it remains the case that if someone comes up with a drug/substance/variant which the Act has 'not yet thought of', then it does not become illegal unless/until the law/list is actually revised. A lot of the so-called 'legal highs' may eventually get onto one or other of the lists.
Kind Regards, John

Do you have a proposed draft for legislation that catches all existing and future legal highs?
 
Do you have a proposed draft for legislation that catches all existing and future legal highs?
That would obviously be impossible. However, as I said, there have already been attempts to move in that direction, by including molecules which contain certain 'bits' etc., or which are simple (by not necessarily strictly defined) variants of things already in the lists, and I'm sure such attempts will continue.

One specific problem relates to 'natural' (plant-derived) substances that are not even chemically defined - cannabis is a relatively straightforward example, but there's no telling what else people might harvest/grow and then consume or smoke - there are millions of plants which contain psycho-active substances out there!

Kind Regards, John
 

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