C E marking

[JohnW2]

When you have had a customer complaining about a cable that has melted on a legitimately supplied product you won't see the funny side. It has an external hard drive caddy, the mains power cable melted.

I don't think anyone has suggested that there is a 'funny side'. There clearly isn't.

When I inspected it although the cable looked fine, the plug looked legal, had and had all the correct markings the cores inside the cable had less copper than speaker cable in them .

Exactly - and you are an 'expert', and even you could not detect a problem without taking the cable apart (hence presumably 'destroying' the product). So how on earth could one reasonably expect the proprietor of a ("we sell anything") high street shop, market stall or on-line buy/sell website to be able to detect that the item was unsatisfactory?!

Kind Regards, John

 

[NewOrder]

Is there anything I can do to try and educate people in the IT industry about the issue? Most the people I know do avoid the 'Genuine Dell chargers' you get on Ebay etc but some people I think either don't believe how wide spread the problem is or don't believe it.

For example I recently bought a second hand Thinkpad for myself from a reputable supplier, I paid little money for it as it was a trade sale, but it came with a charger with very little info on it. In fact the only markings on it are "CE".

I shall be replacing it with a decent Anker or Lavolta one.

 

[stillp]

IMO, existing laws need to be enforced at the level of manufacturers

They are outside our jurisdiction.

or importers

And if the "importer" is UPS, or the Chinese postal service?

to prevent unsafe goods getting into the UK supply chain.

Amazon and eBay etc play a very significant role in these unsafe goods getting into the UK supply chain, they should be held accountable.

The importer is the person who places the order for a product that will be supplied from outside the UK.
If the seller claims the item will be delivered from the UK, but it is actually delivered from outside the UK, then technically an offence of misrepresentaion has been committed, but try persuading Trading Standards to do something about it!

 

[JohnW2]

Is there anything I can do to try and educate people in the IT industry about the issue? Most the people I know do avoid the 'Genuine Dell chargers' you get on Ebay etc but some people I think either don't believe how wide spread the problem is or don't believe it.

As I said, I don't think the end-user (even ones, like you, with expert knowledge) can possibly be expected to be able to detect more than the most obvious of dodgy products. Cheap price does not, in itself, prove that the product is not satisfactory (and nor does high price prove that it's 'OK') and one certainly can't tar all goods sold via eBay with the same brush. Don't forget that some 'fakes' are extremely convincing.

That's why I remain of the view that only solution is for 'the authorities' (with the facilities and expertise to undertake 'destructive inspection testing' where necessary) should try much harder to prevent unacceptable goods getting into the UK supply chain.

I suppose the only thing you can advise people is to buy the most expensive products they can find, allegedly manufactured by the most reputable of companies and sold by the most reputable of outlets - but, even then, some will get caught by 'convincing fakes'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[NewOrder]

That is what I like about Lavoltla etc, it is a UK company importing chargers from China but they say they test each batch in their own UK labs and the chargers are designed in the UK too.

However even then the manufacture could easily slip a few dodgy ones in.

I am developing my own website so I will include some information about how to spot a dodgy charger. I take a picture of an illegal plug (if I can find one) etc.

It is the same with PC ATX power supplies too, there are a lot of dodgy cheap ones about however I don't know of any of them catching fire, at worst they tend to destroy the PC. I will only use proper brands such as Corsair, FSP, Antec etc. It does mean that a simple power supply replacement job can end up costing £75 when I know the dodgy shop down the road will do it for £30, but I can sleep at night knowing if anything bad does happen I can trace the supply chain back to the actual factory that made it.

 

[JohnW2]

That is what I like about Lavoltla etc, it is a UK company importing chargers from China but they say they test each batch in their own UK labs and the chargers are designed in the UK too. However even then the manufacture could easily slip a few dodgy ones in.

Quite. There are ways in which one can attempt to improve one's chances, but none are foolproof. Don't forget that very little manufacture of mass-market electronic goods takes place in 'the West'. Even the most 'reputably-branded' ('Western') products are usually manufactured in Asia. One hopes that the more responsible manufacturers will do at least some inspection & testing of the goods when imported into UK - but, as you suggest, that's more likely to be on the basis of sampling from batches, rather than 100% inspection/testing.

I am developing my own website so I will include some information about how to spot a dodgy charger. I take a picture of an illegal plug (if I can find one) etc.

Yes. Although it doesn't say much for the intelligence of the fakers, a significant proportion of the dodgy items seem to be visually identifiable as such, so that alerting potential buyers to the non-compliant ones that even they can identify from pictures would certainly be worthwhile. If you do some Googling, I think you'll find plenty of pics of dodgy electrical items (but don't ask me about the copyright situation!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So how on earth could one reasonably expect the proprietor of a ("we sell anything") high street shop, market stall or on-line buy/sell website to be able to detect that the item was unsatisfactory?!

If they can't then they stop gambling with other people's lives by taking a chance.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

For example I recently bought a second hand Thinkpad for myself from a reputable supplier, I paid little money for it as it was a trade sale, but it came with a charger with very little info on it. In fact the only markings on it are "CE".

It should say "Lenovo" on it.

If the supplier is reputable, ask him who makes the charger he supplied, and if he can give you a categorical assurance that it is perfectly safe.

 

[ericmark]

Items can be tested and inspected the former does need some equipment but the latter can be done by anyone who knows what to look for.

In the same way as we are taught with TV adverts to look for trains before crossing the railway track so could adverts be shown to instruct people what to look for with dangerous electrical equipment.

So we have a number of classes of non complaint electrical equipment.

1) Non complaint which can only be shown by destructive testing. Unreasonable to hold supplier responsible for these faults, unless importing by the 1000's.
2) Non complaint which can be shown by non-destructive testing. Here yes suppliers could be expected to test a sample of the items offered for sale where not from EU supplier.
3) Non complaint which can be shown by visual inspection. Again here reasonable that suppliers could be expected to inspect a sample of the items offered for sale where not from EU supplier. Also the buyer can also inspect so faults like missing glue which allows access to live parts should be spotted before it goes into service.

But with many of the items the only way to show the suppliers and general public alike that the items are non complaint is a rogues gallery showing the items. However there has to be some government control can't allow competitors to blacken each others name by showing items which should not be listed.

I bought two battery chargers very similar at similar price one to charge Nikon camera battery the other a Pentax camera battery the former was good enough no visible faults the latter had a unfused adaptor supplied with it to convert from USA to British socket and gaps in protection not complying with IP regulations.

However even with these defects it was not really dangerous in the same way as one can be educated not to cross a railway track when you can see a train so can the general public be educated to identify many of the faults of non compliant equipment.

But all manufacturers will at some time make a mistake Boeing aircraft batteries went on fire it's not limited to Dell computers and I am sure both have done something to stop the fault.

But if using a PAT tester one could not find the fault then really unreasonable to expect retailer to find the fault either. Only a rogues gallery will do that and clearly it has to be controlled can't be just a free for all.

 

[JohnW2]

So we have a number of classes of non complaint electrical equipment.
1) Non complaint which can only be shown by destructive testing. Unreasonable to hold supplier responsible for these faults, unless importing by the 1000's.
2) Non complaint which can be shown by non-destructive testing. Here yes suppliers could be expected to test a sample of the items offered for sale where not from EU supplier.
3) Non complaint which can be shown by visual inspection. Again here reasonable that suppliers could be expected to inspect a sample of the items offered for sale where not from EU supplier.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'supplier'. I may have misunderstood, but my understanding was that it is a legal requirement that the importer (who placed the order with the overseas manufacturer or intermediary) takes whatever steps are necessary (including destructive testing, if necessary) to satisfy themselves that goods imported from outside of the EU comply with the relevant regulations. Anyone subsequently 'handling' the product within the UK supply chain is not importing and therefore should be able to assume that the goods they have acquired within the UK (indeed, anywhere within the EU) are compliant with EU & UK regulations.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

If they can't then they stop gambling with other people's lives by taking a chance.

OK, so we know what line of business you are in, can you absolutely, 100% (not 99%, or 99.99%) state that you have never ever been in a situation where something you put on/under a user's desk or in one of your customer's racks might not have been 100% good ?
Taking the example above, you may say you (or your company) only bought from "reputable" suppliers, and that everything had the right markings - but did you (for example) cut open the mains leads to check they had the right amount of copper in them ? I doubt you did, and that means you cannot be 100% sure - and so using your own turn of phrase, you should stop gambling with other peoples' lives.

The sad truth is that none of us are completely immune. We can do our best, but short of 100% destructive testing (which wouldn't be very productive) there is no guarantee.