Can Schuko plugs be wired to UK bought electrical items?

To answer the last poster, yes, the socket outlets used in the UK and Republic of Ireland are totally different from those used in North America. More importantly, so is the voltage.

The UK and Republic of Ireland use 230V 50Hz, the same as the rest of Europe, only the plug is different. So, you simply need to use a pin adaptor / fit a UK/Ireland plug.

The US/Canada uses 110V 60Hz, totally different from Europe. If you're travelling there you need to ensure that your appliances can function on 110V 60Hz or get a transformer to step the power up to 230V. Even when you've stepped it up the frequency will remain 60Hz which can cause problems for some types of equipment. On top of that, you'll need a pin adaptor.

Thanks, I did not know this, especially about that 110v/60 hz in US/Canada.

:eek:
 
Sponsored Links
Most homes in the U.S. have a 1-phase 3-wire service which provides both 120 and 240 volts. The outlet type posted by Solair above is the type used for 120V outlets all around the house, but it is also common to have 240V outlets installed for specific appliances where needed.

Air conditioners, certainly in medium sizes and upward, are often designed for 240V and will run from a dedicated outlet. The pins are basically the same as on the 120V receptacle, but with the flat blades tandem instead of parallel, like this:

19039.jpg


(These are 15A outlets -- Others exist for 20A and upward.)
 
Many people asking about fuse. Is it possible, these are differeant?
Fuse=bezpiecznik ?
Greetings. :D
thank You All.
 
I was taught that a portable appliance has the fuse in the plug to protect the cable so in the UK we can use thinner cable than the rest of Europe. Where it is required to protect the appliance then the protection device must be contained within the appliance. These rules were introduced in order to Harmonise with Europe.
So as far as fuses in the plug is concerned there is no problem. But the German plug is reversible and any fuse inside the appliance would normally be fitted on the Line wire (Both Phase and Neutral are called live so we call phase wire Line in single phase supply) also the switch often is only fitted to the Line supply so although our appliances can be used in Europe that does not include Germany Schuko plug which is banned in the UK. The French one is OK as are the rest of European plugs but the Germany Schuko can only be safe with double insulated Class II equipment and can't be harmonised with the rest of Europe because it is reversible and line and neutral can be swapped.
Which such a basic fault in design only with an IT supply could they be used and having not worked in Germany I don't know what supplies they have but in UK we are not allowed an IT supply only TT or TN are permitted it would be interesting to hear from a German Electrician how this basic problem is redressed?
Eric
 
Sponsored Links
I was taught that a portable appliance has the fuse in the plug to protect the cable so in the UK we can use thinner cable than the rest of Europe.
But the simple fact is we don't. We use the same 3A rated european harmonised flex that everyone else uses.

I was under the impression that the original reason we moved to fused plugs was to allow higher rated socket circuits to be used safely.

But the German plug is reversible and any fuse inside the appliance would normally be fitted on the Line wire
Unfortunately true but a fuse in the neutral will still protect against overloads (though it will leave the appliance live after stopping the overload) and the MCB and/or RCD at the board should deal with shorts to the case.

so although our appliances can be used in Europe that does not include Germany Schuko plug which is banned in the UK. The French one is OK as are the rest of European plugs
The german plug is used in other parts of europe too (and do you have a source for your claim that it is banned in the UK) and most class 1 appliances sold in europe are sold with hybrid schuko/french plugs.

Also I get a very strong impression that the french don't worry too much about which way arround they connect live and neutral even though the physical plug is polarised.

but the Germany Schuko can only be safe with double insulated Class II equipment and can't be harmonised with the rest of Europe because it is reversible and line and neutral can be swapped.
Well plenty of class 1 equipment is sold accross europe. If it was really that dangerous someone would have done something about it by now.
 
Sorry I should have given the 553.1.2 reference.
I do agree that Europe does not seem to care so much about reverse polarity but using the argument they break the rules so I can do the same does not really hold water!
And yes I know Europe uses under size cable but again because they use it doesn't make it right.
As to fuse still blowing in neutral agreed.
But
RCD at the board should deal with shorts to the case.
Is the real point to my mind in that Europe have used RCD protection well before it was common on all socket outlets in the UK we have after all only been doing that for just over 2 months.
It will also be dependent on the earthing of metal items like water pipes and gas supplies and it was 1980 when I worked on the Dutch system and in a very dry area Hassi R'mel in the Sharia in Algeria so I am sure like our selves there have been many changes.
But returning to original question most likely UK equipment of recent manufacture can be used in the rest of Europe with local plugs but without information from the manufacturers it is not certain if all can be used.
The same happens in reverse and I have removed from service equipment supplied with twin flex without an earth solely because it did not have the double square marking showing it to be Class II although I am sure it was OK and was taken home and used without problem.
Most appliances are common to all countries within Europe but the more specialised items may have problems.
No real right or wrong just shades of gray.
I don't have an answer as such all I can do is make the guy aware of possible problems can't really say yes or no.
Eric
 
Under European law *ALL* electrical appliances sold in the EU must meet a common set of European standards. So, unless you're talking about some 1950s appliance that's wired up with twisted pair exposed cables there's absolutely no problem wiring it to a schuko plug. They all meet the same standards and are fully compatible other than the different plug configuration.

These regulations actually apply beyond the EU too as European countries cooporate through CENELEC (Comité Européen de Normalisation Electrotechnique) This is a shared standardisation body that each national electrical standards body signed up to be part of. All electrical standards are developed on a pan-European basis, not at national level.

With regards to polarity, we're using AC not DC. The polarity for any appliance you can think of is irrelevant.

It's even possible to supply 230V using two lives and no neutral. This was common practice in some countries until the 1960s where old systems provided 3 wires to homes, much like in the modern US systems. If you connected between the two lives you got 220V, if you connected live to neutral you got 127V. When 127V appliances and lighting were phased out, many outlets were simply wired with two lives.

This meant that polarity was irrelevant.

The only thing to bare in mind is that if you are serving an appliance you should UNPLUG completely from the wall socket.

Even in a country like the UK or Ireland where plugs are polarised you should ALWAYS treat neutral as if it were potentially live. It's possible that due to a neutral fault, or due to a miswired socket, plug or circuit that you could have neutral and live reversed. Also, on some wiring systems where TT-earthing is used it's possible that there's a potential difference between the netural wire and your local earth. This could be significant enough to give you a bad shock / even kill you.

This is why manufacturers always advise you to remove the plug before servicing an appliance or even before changing the bulb in a lamp.

European bulb holders (including those in the UK) for Edison style screw-in bulbs are also designed to protect your fingers from coming into contact with the screw part of the bulb on the off chance that it is carrying high voltage. This is not the case in the US. They assume that plugs are polarised (not always the case).

As for fusing in the UK plugs. It is really just there to make the ring circuit systems work safely. If it wasn't for ring mains, there would be no real reason to have fuses in UK plugs.

Also, the majority of appliances in the UK are connected via 13Amp fused plug. Most people don't fit the correct fuse. So, the level of protection is generally the same as an appliance on a European radial circuit.

Also, circuit breakers tend to trip much faster than a plug fuse will blow.

For example, I'm in Ireland and we generally use 16 amp or 20 amp radial circuits for sockets, similar to those used in continental european countries, but we use UK plugs.

When I have had a faulty appliance, the 20amp circuit breaker blew before the fuse had a chance to melt in the plug!

So, in reality the fused plugs are not really providing extra protection.

Also, European socket outlets are designed to cope with up to 20Amps, if you overload them beyond that they will blow the circuit breaker. So, there's no real risk of burning the place down with double adaptors either. Although, it's still not advisable.
 
In the UK we have regulations and laws the main regulation is written and published by the IET and BSi and is duel named “Requirements for Electrical Installation IEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition” and “BS7671:2008” The two main laws and “Electricity at work act” and “Part P building regulation” the latter refers back to BS7671:2008 thus to all intent and purpose making it law.
In this country the phase and neutral wires are both considered as live i.e. Live part. A conductor or conductive part intended to be energised in normal use, including a neutral conductor but, by convention, not a PEN conductor.
In a single phase system the phase wire is called the Line conductor. A conductor of an a.c. system for the transmission of electrical energy other than a neutral conductor, a protective conductor or a PEN conductor. The term also means the equivalent conductor of a d.c. system unless otherwise specified in the Regulations. This is what the L on our plugs stand for L for Line.
The regulations state:- 553.1.2 Except for SELV or a special circuit from Regulation 553.1.5, every plug and socket-outlet shall be of the non-reversible type. with provision for the connection of a protective conductor.
And in case you think 553.1.5 will allow it that says:- A plug and socket-outlet not complying with BS 1363. BS 546, BS 196 or BS EN 60309-2, may be used in single-phase a.c. or two-wire d.c. circuits operating at a nominal voltage not exceeding 250 volts for:
(i) the connection of an electric clock, provided that the plug and socket-outlet are designed specifically for that purpose, and that each plug incorporates a fuse of rating not exceeding 3 amperes complying with BS 646 or BS 1362 as appropriate
(ii) the connection of an electric shaver. provided that the socket-outlet is either incorporated in a shaver supply unit complying with BS EN 61558-2-5 or, in a room other than a bathroom, is a type complying with BS 4573
(iii) a circuit having special characteristics such that danger would otherwise arise or it is necessary to distinguish the function of the circuit.
As to 612.6 Polarity
A test of polarity shall be made and it shall be verified that.
(i) every fuse and single-pole control and protective device is connected in the line conductor only, and
(ii) except for E14 and E27 lampholders to BS EN 60238, in circuits having an earthed neutral conductor, centre contact bayonet and Edison screw lampholders have the outer or screwed contacts connected to the neutral conductor. and
(iii) wiring has been correctly connected to socket-outlets and similar accessories.
Quite obvious polarity does matter in UK system.
As to split phase supplies we also have those in the UK on our 110 volt system which then requires both the phases to be switched together with double pole switches and overload trips and there is a big problem with imports from the US having only single pole switching and fires have resulted.
As to our 13 amp plugs it is not the ring main but the practice of fusing to max current carrying capacity of cable rather than current carrying capacity of socket that is main advantage and pre-1950’s my grandfathers house had 8 fuses just for sockets but post 1950’s my fathers house had one fuse for 10 sockets. Appendix 15 shows clearly you 20 amp and 32 amp fuses supplying radials this can be down loaded as it was in the July Corrigendum.
With it now being law to fit plugs on all items offered for sale the correct size fuse is more commonly fitted than before and with the maximum being 13 amp rather than 16 amp we can use 1.25mm rather than 1.5mm required with 16 amp plug and by using a 3 amp fuse we can go down to 0.5mm flex which it is impossible to use with 16 amp plug and follow the regulations.
As to MCB compared with fuse all semi-conductors devices are protected by a fuse because an MCB is not fast enough and there is a huge difference between reaction times against overload between the two systems and depending on fault current drawn there will be and number of cross over points between to duel triggered MCB and the fuse but since in the main the cable is made of the same material as the fuse the fuse is more reliable in preventing overloads causing damage.
I do see where you are coming from and we did at one time wonder if we would harmonise with Europe with the plug types but although most of Europe have non reversible sockets the way the plugs have been made to plug into multi systems with under size pins and slightly different pin spacing only by coming up with a completely new plug and socket could the European system be made safe and in the UK we want to make the system safer so adopting the same system as any of the existing European seems very unlikely.
As to the earthing systems there are different rules for TT and TN-C-S and the latter does allow some single pole switching and the rules do get some what complex with the supply authorities being encouraged to give a TN-C-S supply but it still being banned for use with caravans and to quote rules on that would take pages.
Eric
 
The European CEE 7/7 plug, i.e. the earthed 16 amp plug actually connects to two different types of socket outlet.

1) CEE 7/4 - Germany (and most of Europe). In this type of socket it uses the scraping contacts on the top and bottom of the plug to make contact with the earth springs on the socket. These sockets are not polarised.

2) CEE 7/5 - France, Belgium and several eastern European countries have also adopted it. Denmark's phasing it in too. This socket has an earth pin protruding from the socket itself. Grounded CEE 7/7 plugs can only be inserted in 1 direction.

The CEE 7/16 plug i.e. the flat 2 pin 2.5amp 'euro plug' that is generally fitted to small double-insulated (Class II) appliances like radios, tv's etc is always reversible in all types of sockets. This type of plug fits ALL European outlets except the UK and Ireland.

Note that the CEE 7/16 plug is permitted in the UK and Ireland on shavers, and also on small appliances where it is inserted into a special adaptor plug which can only be removed with the use of a tool. Major appliance manufacturers including Sony fit these to the majority of their audiovisual appliances sold in Ireland and the UK.

Polarity on this type of plug is random.

It should also be noted that the 'figure of 8' connector found on the back of most radios, set-top boxes, vcrs, dvd players etc is fully reversible and non-polarised. This connector is used in the UK and is an accepted standard.

Depending on which feature you're looking at the CEE 7/7 and the UK BS1363 system are very safe when implemented correctly. However, both have their drawbacks.

BS1363 -
Advantages:
Polarised
Fused
Shuttered sockets are standard.

Disadvantages:
Pins are not always touch-proof (older plugs)
Pins only make contact at the tips to prevent touching of live pins when inserting the plug - This can result in over-heating due to poor contact if the springs in the socket become worn.
Non-standard rating i.e. 13amps rather than 16amps
Very bulky
Use of brittle materials is still permitted and plug tops can fracture exposing live parts.
Use of ground pin to establish polarity - means unnecessarily large plugs on small appliances.

CEE 7/7

Advantages:
Recessed sockets - impossible to touch live pins while inserting. This also removes the need to have contacts only at the top of the pins. So, connection is generally more secure and using a large surface area of the pins which results in less likelihood of overheating.
Smaller plugs are possible for small appliances.
Slightly less bulky than BS1363
Brittle materials are no longer permitted to produce plugs.
Plugs are designed to be very difficult to open when pulling out i.e. the screws go across the plug in re-wirable versions. BS1363 relies on a single screw which holds the back on. This can fail.

Disadvantages:
Lack of polarisation
Bulkier than necessary
CEE 7/7 plugs can be inserted into obsolete sockets that do not have grounding contacts.


There is a pan-European socket outlet which was designed to be rolled out to replace CEE 7/7 and the handful of incompatible systems used in the UK, Ireland, Italy, Denmark and Switzerland.

This is a 16 amp recessed socket with 3 pins

IEC-906-1-plug.svg


plug60906.gif


It has:
Sleeved pins
Shuttered sockets
Polarised
Recessed socket
16Amp rating
Very small and neat,
Retains compatibility with CEE 7/16, the small plug used on small European appliances.

It is small enough that two sockets could be fitted on a single UK or German plate.
 
I do agree the euro plugs are cheaper bound to be when they don't require fuses. The only appliance which I have found that needs more than 3kw is a portable welding set which one does not find too many in normal British home.
I agree Class 2 equipment does not really require a non reversible plug.
But the shaver adapter and euro plug have different pin spacing and the forcing of euro plugs into shaver adapters can result in bad connections when shavers are then used in the same adapter. Also they only have 1 amp fuses so are limited as to what one can plug into them anyway.
But personal opinions have nothing to do with our rules. We can't use reversible plugs where an earth is required and the BS standard has changed slightly for 13 amp plug in that they now need an insulating portion of the pins and all must be shuttered.
Because of historical differences in our systems we will never be able to use Euro plugs in this country in the same way as we will never move to driving on the right.
Eric
 
The IEC / CENELEC plug depicted above is however polarised and could be easily rolled out in the UK and Ireland. The only difference would be that UK and Irish sockets would need to be fused where used on ring circuits.

The original proposal for the UK (and Ireland) was pretty simple. Because the sockets are significantly smaller than a BS1363 socket outlet it would be quite easy to produce a UK-spec wall plate that had a small fuse carrier, just like a fused spur and a socket. Or, in the case of double-sockets, 2 fuses.
Micro-breakers could also be installed in place of a fuse.

The result would be a 16amp fused socket which would be as good or better protection than the standard version which would be used in the rest of Europe.

The only problem with this solution is that it fails a cost/benefit analysis.

BS1363 and CEE 7/7 are regarded as very safe solutions. Both systems provide an easy-to-use robust way of connecting appliances and modern installations are very safe right across the EU.

The countries which do use strange semi-compatible variants of CEE 7/7 i.e. Denmark and Italy who have their own versions have opted to change to socket outlets that are compatible.

In the case of italy the national standard is like this :

image.php


The new version of their sockets:


So, they've rolled out Schuko socket outlets that have a ground hole in the centre and can accept either CEE 7/7 or the Italian system without any safety or convienence comprimise.

829e_2.JPG


Denmark has a 3-pin socket

120px-K_plug_typical.jpg


This system has a huge safety problem as it's possible to connect a grounded CEE 7/7 (standard European) plug to it without connecting the earth!! The live and neutral pins are in the correct configuration to fit the danish outlet but there are no clips or earthing pin.

As a result, Denmark's now rolling out the French system
prise_alvais_blanc.jpg


They are keeping their strict polarisation requirements, so the live and neutral pins will always be in the correct order when used with a CEE 7/7 plug.

This only leaves the UK, Ireland, Malta and Cyprus who use BS1363

and Switzerland who tend to have their own standards for almost everything anyway for trade-protection reasons.

So, basically Europe has ended up with a de facto main standard i.e. CEE 7/7 which is used by pretty much all countries in all modern installations.

and BS1363 as an alternative minor standard which is only used in the UK, Ireland, Malta and Cyprus.

CENELEC basically has decided to leave it like that. They're more concerned about standardising and harmonising more important things like the mandatory use of RCDs, appliance safety standards, cable and wire standards, grounding, distribution networks, industrial safety etc.

To get back to the topic however, European (that includes UK and Ireland) appliances are standardised and will work happily and safely on either a CEE 7/7 (Schuko) or BS1363 (UK 3-pin) plug. Just ensure that the plug is wired correctly and that it connected to a modern, grounded socket outlet.

The appliance will have been designed to function well on either polarity, even though it has been sold in the UK.

The only thing to always remember is that if you are servicing an appliance (that includes changing light bulbs on lamps) ALWAYS remove the plug from the wall socket. Never rely on the fact that the switch has de-energised all of the internal components. A switch is only there to interrupt the circuit and stop the flow of power through the appliance, not to make it internally safe to work on.

Neutral (blue) wires should always be treated as potentially carrying deadly voltages.
 
China has used a combination of plugs for a long time and that includes the British 13 amp and there is no reason other than having to change the plug why houses in the UK should not have any other type of non reversible plug so long as it complies with BS1363, (Std 13 amp) BS 5733, (Euro Converter plug Note non earthed seem to be limited to 2.5 amp) BS EN 60309,(Industrial type) IEC 60884,(Euro plug with earth socket) IEC 60906,(Euro three pin centre pin slightly off-set) BS 546,(Old British round pin) BS 196,(Old British industrial often pins are fuses were common on 110 volt split phase ring mains as they fused both phases) BS 4573,(Two pin shaver plug) BS 6991,(Two pole weather resistance) BS 61535,(Odd connector used in pre-wired systems) BS EN 60320,(Type that fits computers and kettles) BS EN 61558-2-5,(whole plug with transformer for shavers etc).
The IEC 60884 is very similar to the German type except non-reversible and for class II as you have already said BS 5733 two pin is allowed. Also a Schuko to BS1363 Adaptor RS 399-6134 with I note shuttered sockets is available at £2.68 so in real terms there is no problem using the using the Schuko plug in the UK only the providing of a fixed Schuko socket seems to be a problem.
It did cause us a lot of problems where imported German equipment was provided with Schuko sockets for maintenance equipment and there was not enough room to change them for UK 13 amp sockets.
Never quite understood why the BS 196 went out of favour and was replaced with the BS EN 60309 with the banks of MCB’s required for the latter, seem to remember there were two types with and without a groove the fused type would plug into either.
But they are the only type of plug I have seen with 2 fuses. Larger versions also had a switch and you plugged in and twisted to turn on and pressed red button to turn off.
If a double fused plug is used I see no reason why it should not be reversible. But even with yellow versions of the BS EN 60309 which is used for split phase 110 volt there is still normally L and N marked on the plug and there is no neutral. Also the cables cores should be Brown, Black and Green/Yellow yet every one I have seen uses colours Brown, Blue and Green/Yellow even though yellow artic flex is hardly ever used on anything but a split phase system.
Returning to original question in practice there is likely no problem changing the plug from UK to Schuko but in theory it should not be done unless recommended by manufacturer. And in theory Schuko sockets are not allowed in the UK.
And the last picture you show of socket with earth pin sticking out is allowed in the UK it conforms with IEC 60884 and I have seen universal plugs with both Schuko side earths and the IEC 60884 socket so in UK if you want there is nothing to stop you using them. Don’t know rules in Ireland?
Eric
 
Ireland's electrical systems are very heavily German and Swedish influenced since the very start of standardisation here. We standardised on 220V (380V 3-phase) 50Hz back in the early 1920s. This was simply because Siemens, AEG and Asea (Sweden) were ESB (Electricity Supply Board)'s key suppliers.

Transmission and distribution voltages are also unlike the UK : 10kV, 20kV, 38kV, 110kV, 220kV and 400kV

Schuko plugs and sockets were the preferred standard here until the 1960s and can still be found as disconnected relics in many buildings throughout the country.

(BS546, mostly the 15A version, was also used in the 50s and 60s. )

BS1363 was then officially adopted as IS-401 (Plug) and IS-411 (Socket) and became the mainstream standard used in Ireland for domestic plugs and sockets.

If you look at this official ESB guide to wiring a plug, you'll see it makes reference to the '16 amp side earthed plug'.

http://www.esb.ie/main/energy_home/plug_safety.jsp

So does this appliance wiring guide :

http://www.caple.co.uk/documents/guides/C211L.pdf



There are other strongly Northern European features in the Irish system. For example, you will see that fuse-boards here used German-style bottle-shaped Diazed and Neozed cartridge fuses rather than fuse wire systems like in the UK.

Also, ring circuits are not very commonly used here. Sockets are usually wired on 16 amp radials where fuses are used, or 20amp radials where breakers are used.

Lighting circuits are 10 amp radials.

Also, RCD usage has been obligatory on all sockets (rated less than or equal to 32A), water heaters etc since the late 70s.
 
Thank you Solair I know the HV system in Ulster is also different to the rest of the UK. I seem to remember 10KV not 11Kv and I know the tunnel boring machine I worked on in Hong Kong was 10Kv and had a transformer topside to transform from 11Kv to 10Kv made by a firm called Robin think that may have been Swedish. Also had delta 220 volt for lighting etc real pain to work with and no hot wire system like US fully floating.
I hated the bottle fuse with isolation switch after the fuse could see reason as base of fuse screwed direct onto bus bar and transparent fuse boxes did make life easy to trace circuit without opening box.
More to do with what one is use to and it was back in 1980's I worked on a Dutch job in Algeria and the Algerian system even worse with 3 phase 110 volt with 190 volt between phases.
Thanks again Eric
 
The Diazed/Neozed fuse system originates as a Siemens product and is commonly used right across Europe other than in the UK and France which had their own approaches.

The system has one huge advantage over other fuse systems. Each of those bottle-shaped fuses has a different diameter tip. It is impossible to 'overfuse' i.e. install an inappropriately high amperage fuse. The fuse holder has a collar that will only accept fuses of the correct size (or smaller).

This prevents the risk of a consumer or industrial end user simply whacking in a higher rated fuse and cuts down on the risk of fire.

In the days before circuit breakers consumers often installed higher rated fuses / used higher rated fuse wire if the fuse blew 'too easily'. This often resulted over-heating wires and fires.

As far as I am aware, only the Siemens diazed and neozed systems ever addressed this issue. Most other cartridge or screw-in systems allowed any rating of fuse to be slotted in.

Typical fuse used in an Irish distribution board (consumer unit) :
999_diisicherung_p1.jpg



Here's an image of the entire setup dismantled. Normally, you would only remove the fuse holder and fuse

3048.jpg


There's an Irish consumer unit from the 1970s/early 80s with fuses rather than breakers. Note the RCD with a lever rather than switch!

Typical_Fuseboard_with_Ceramic_Bottle_Fuses.12395044_std.jpg
 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top