Can Schuko plugs be wired to UK bought electrical items?

[plugwash]

The system has one huge advantage over other fuse systems. Each of those bottle-shaped fuses has a different diameter tip. It is impossible to 'overfuse' i.e. install an inappropriately high amperage fuse. The fuse holder has a collar that will only accept fuses of the correct size (or smaller).

BS1361 fuses are also sized differently for different ratings.

This prevents the risk of a consumer or industrial end user simply whacking in a higher rated fuse and cuts down on the risk of fire.

however it doesn't stop them covering the fuse in foil and refitting it.

 

[ericmark]

The old Wylex also redressed the problem by making bases that went over the main connections with slots that increased with length with fuse rating and unlike the Siemens system could not be easy crunched with a screw driver. Although to change correctly the Wylex only needed a screw driver the Siemens needed a special tool still have one knocking around my garage somewhere.
Eric

 

[solair]

It's amazing though all these ingenious methods of preventing people from burning their houses down will always be bypassed by the determined idiot. There's only so much nannying that you can do, if someone's going to bypass a fuse they'll do it. Whether it's wrapping a diazed fuse in foil, sticking a bolt into a fuse holder or, the US classic - a penny in the bottom of the holder, they'll manage to do it.

Thankfully MCBs are a bit harder to override !

 

[ericmark]

You brought back memories 1980 I was more into plant and while the camp electrician was away I also covered the accommodation block. A freezer stopped working and I very quickly realized the 25 amp bottle fuse had blown. Replaced and blown again looked at plate and rated at 35 amp per phase and 25 amp was max for that type of fuse holder. In desperation I stripped a 35 amp fuse and fitted the foil inside the 25 amp which worked. Once the camp electrician arrived back off leave I asked him about it.
Oh he said no 35 amp holders were in stock so I did the same.
No wonder was blown as no sand inside. A new fuse box ordered but don't think we would have been caught out not many inspectors in 1980 in Algeria.
Eric

 

[solair]

Regardless of which European standards are being used, they're only safe if they're correctly implemented and inspected. I would go as far as saying that in general all of the European systems that I've ever seen are extremely safe once they are implemented properly and to the appropriate codes. UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Scandinavian, Dutch, Belgian, Spanish etc all work very safely.

I think a lot of British and Irish visitors get an unfairly bad impression of continental electrics simply because they end up buying 'fixer-upers' i.e. cheap property / barn conversions etc to re-develop into a second home abroad. They often encounter ancient wiring or badly done DIY work as a result.

You tend to come across all sorts of strange interpretations of various eras of European (British and Continental), Australian, Chinese and American wiring systems merged together when you visit parts of Africa and developing parts of Asia and South America. It's quite scary how badly regulated some of the electrical work can be!!

 

[ericmark]

I would think sticking a plug into a hotel socket and then on trying to remove it finding the socket has come off the wall is maybe why UK visitors to the continent consider the electrical system is bad. The same may happen in UK hotels but they don't see those, and it may be only one socket in the whole hotel which each UK visitor has been told about while sitting at the pool and likely it is RCD protected where at home they are not but all that does not matter they have found one socket in one room which is faulty and some how that becomes all the electrics are rubbish.
Also the provision of two pin outlets with no earth in hotels which do not seem to be part of an isolated supply does not help. The Isolation transformer may be hidden in the ceiling but it can't be seen so one assumes it's not there.

Eric

 

[solair]

I managed to remove a plug with the complete socket in a hotel in London recently!
+ the light switch gave me an electric shock!!

I think it just means that you haven't paid enough for your hotel hehe

 

[ericmark]

Yes I did try to infer we don't use our own Hotels much so we don't see it in our own.
I saw another post on same subject and now completely confused.
553.1.2 and 553.2.1 both seem to say we can’t use German Schuko sockets but even large firms like RS components sell German Schuko sockets and clearly states Schuko type receptacles can also be supplied conforming to French/Belgian, British, Danish and Swiss standards.
The CEE 7/7 hybrid Schuko/French plug can clearly be used as in French sockets it is non-reversible and the 2.5 amp Europlug CEE 7/16 is OK with class II equipment and can be plugged into our shaver adaptors. Also the Swiss SEV 1011 with offset earth pin (Was at one time [1986] put forward as the standard Euro plug and socket) and Danish Type K also non reversible.

Italian CE1 23-16/VII is reversible but I have not seen any on imported equipment which means in real terms only the German Schuko is a problem.
What are the rules for the use of the German Schuko in the UK. Where they are included with imported equipment do they need changing or are adaptors allowed? I look at RS 453-2775 Man Pt No SCP3-B-13A which say it is approved to BS 5733, BS 1363 by BSi also to PAS003. And has BSi Kitemark. I do note rated current varies from 2.5 amp continuous, 5 amp max, 8 amp, 10 amp and 13 amp and meets DTI Plug and Socket regulations.

How can a converter be allowed and a socket not allowed I am completely confused.
Eric

 

[plugwash]

Regardless of which European standards are being used, they're only safe if they're correctly implemented and inspected. I would go as far as saying that in general all of the European systems that I've ever seen are extremely safe once they are implemented properly and to the appropriate codes. UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Scandinavian, Dutch, Belgian, Spanish etc all work very safely.

I get the impression that while they take earthing seriously now in contential europe that they got arround to doing so much much later than we brits did. Afaict even in "fixer upper" properties in the uk it is pretty unusual to find socket circuits without an earth.

 

[solair]

Regardless of which European standards are being used, they're only safe if they're correctly implemented and inspected. I would go as far as saying that in general all of the European systems that I've ever seen are extremely safe once they are implemented properly and to the appropriate codes. UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Scandinavian, Dutch, Belgian, Spanish etc all work very safely.

I get the impression that while they take earthing seriously now in contential europe that they got arround to doing so much much later than we brits did. Afaict even in "fixer upper" properties in the uk it is pretty unusual to find socket circuits without an earth.

It's largely because the old BS546 system was replaced by something totally incompatible. It's easy to recognise an old UK installation because the plugs don't fit.

On the continent the old obsolete sockets were still able to accept modern plugs so they stuck around for a lot longer as people simply didn't bother upgrading. BS546 included a non-grounded 2-pin socket configuration, although it wasn't widely used after the 1950s. The current UK shaver plug and socket is based on it. It had shorter stubbier pins than modern European plugs, but was otherwise very similar the pin spacing etc is the same.

What I have come across in both the UK and in Ireland is very old installations with new sockets fitted i.e. 1930s wiring that has been 'updated'. One such installation had some sockets which had no earth wires connected up.

You'd be amazed at the scary stuff you can find in some old houses that haven't had a visit from a sparks since the 1940s/50s. While most of us don't come across them in our day-to-day lives they do exist. We moved into an old place which had been neglected for decades and it's amazing that it hadn't fried someone!

Also, there are many UK practices that would be frowned upon in most continental European countries (particularly Northern Europe / Scandinavia) where the rules can be pretty strict.

E.g. the use of unsheathed thin earth wires i.e. the type you find in normal UK 'twin + earth" wiring. In a fault situation where there is no RCD that wire would need to be capable of safely carrying as much juice as the live i.e. up to 32Amps. However, in most instances it wouldn't be able to do that.

The use of ring circuits would raise a lot of electricans eyebrows too. It's questionable whether they're actually very safe. Depending on how the sockets are spread along the ring you can actually end up overloading it.

E.g. if most of the load is near one side of the ring the power will be mostly drawn along one side. This can result in hot wires!

It's a problem in older UK kitchens which have been upgraded to include a heap of new appliances e.g. a kitchen that sits on a ring circuit might have only been designed to cope with an electric kettle and many be a washing machine. This may now have a dishwasher, kettle, george forman grill, microwave (with combination oven), washing machine, tumble dryer etc all being fed by the same ring and all located on the same point in that ring.

The non-compulsary use of RCDs is also a bit strange in the UK. E.g. in the Republic of Ireland they've been manditory since late 1979.

Again, I'm not saying that continental practices are perfect, far from it. It's just that EVERY system has its good and bad points. I think really we need to be moving towards a harmonised Europe-wide set of electrical practices that take the best from all the systems and produce a really good safe common set of wiring practices. In general though, they're all very safe systems IF they're implemented correctly and according to their respective rules.

I would rather see something like a modern neat socket outlet that had the advantages of both the UK and Schuko systems and a wiring system that took the best of the European regulations and combined them together.

I suppose we are gradually moving towards something like that though. Albeit in a very slow and ad hoc way.

 

[ericmark]

The idea of our 13 amp fused plug is great but the ring main is not so good and we tend to group the two together.
Using 20 amp radial supplies to 13 amp sockets is the way forward allowing multi-sockets on each radial.
The ring is great if it is correctly installed and maintained and I did some calculations as to how close three sockets would need to be to the consumer unit to overload the cable (Full 32 amp draw) and with 4% volt drop giving max of 64 meters and clipped direct i.e. 27 amp capacity it would within first 10 meters but looking at 5% volt drop giving 80 meters and burying the cable in a wall so only 20 amps max then then load needs to be within first 30 meters and as such the chance of overloading the system is now quite high. Also the chance of ring failure and overload is also quite high and I think it is time to abandon the ring main.
Also with RCBO protection the more the supply is split the less multi filters are likely to exceed the 20ma that may cause them to trip.
Being able to use 0.5mm flex safely with the 13 amp plug is however great and with History leaving our sockets with 32 amp available at the socket unless a fused plug is used I can't see the 13 amp fused plug being replaced for many years.
On the IET web site there is the PDF reports on ring main discussion and I can see the ring having it's maximum power reduced to 25 amp soon.
All best Eric

 

[solair]

In Ireland the general norm for installations is 20 amp radials with BS1363 fused plugs.

Ring circuits aren't generally used.


It allows more flexibility than a 16 amp radial, more socket outlets etc and better over-current protection. Yet, it doesn't go as far as the potential drawbacks and complications that a ring can bring.

I prefer the idea of having a couple of dedicated 20amp radials feeding heavy loads like the kitchen appliances than sticking them all on a ring.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

In the case of italy the national standard is like this :

Somewhere I've got a rewirable Italian plug that fits sockets like those - the odd thing abut it is that it's got a knurled wheel built in that moves the outer pins in & out, changing the spacing between them...

 

[solair]

Italian plugs come in two versions, 10amp and 16amp. The 16 amp version has thicker pins, placed further apart than the 10amp version. It's pins are slightly further apart than a normal schuko plug.

Most modern italian sockets accept both 10amp and 16amp plugs without any problem, hence the strange shape entry-opening.

However, it's still possible to install sockets that will only accept 10amp plugs if you wish to limit the load to that level.

I suspect that you've got an old plug that was able to fit either 10amp or 16amp sockets that lacked the ability to accept both types of plugs.

 

[IJWS15]

Back to the earlier question - I bought a wireable plug for less than 2 euros in a French supermarket a couple of weeks ago. Made by Legrand.