Can this IP24 rated Wall Cabinet be installed in Zone 2?

[alanp2000]

Researching on the internet, I have been getting mixed messages. The cabinet concerned is:
http://www.croydex.com/products/377-thames-illuminated-cabinet.aspx

I would be very grateful for an explanation of why it can't be installed in Zone 2 (in addition to what is stated on the web site).

Many thanks
Alan

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ask the makers - they are the ones saying it's unsuitable.

 

[sparkticus]

It appears to be rated for IP24. The second number (4) means that it can withstand occasional water spray from any direction. The first number (2) indicates how easy it would be to put your finger or a piece of wire, tool etc into the inner workings.

The regulations for zone 1 and 2 require a minimum protection of IPX4 so it appears to comply from that point of view. Ask the manufacturer if the shaver socket complies with BS/EN 61558-2-5. If they say yes then ask them why it is not suitable for zone 2. . Either way this is a question for the manufacturer.

 

[alanp2000]

It appears to be rated for IP24. The second number (4) means that it can withstand occasional water spray from any direction. The first number (2) indicates how easy it would be to put your finger or a piece of wire, tool etc into the inner workings.

The regulations for zone 1 and 2 require a minimum protection of IPX4 so it appears to comply from that point of view. Ask the manufacturer if the shaver socket complies with BS/EN 61558-2-5. If they say yes then ask them why it is not suitable for zone 2. . Either way this is a question for the manufacturer.

I will ask the manufacturer. Your explanation was very clear and concise.
Many thanks Alan

 

[JohnW2]

It appears to be rated for IP24. The second number (4) means that it can withstand occasional water spray from any direction. The first number (2) indicates how easy it would be to put your finger or a piece of wire, tool etc into the inner workings.

I'm probably being dim, but I'm struggling to understand how IP24 can exist. If objects up to 12mm are allowed to enter (IP2x), how on earth could it be IPx4 ?

BTW, IIRC, IPx4 refers to water 'splashes', not spray.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[bernardgreen]

IP 24 is possible.

But a correction first

Protected against water sprayed from all directions-light splash proof

The 2 prevents objects 12 mm or larger getting to places inside the equipment where there is a hazard to them from anything, gear wheels, blades, hot surfaces etc. The 4 is to prevent water or other liquids reaching parts where the liquid could cause a problem and allows for barriers inside the equipment to deflect incoming liquids away from the parts where liquid would be a hazard.

If the equipment was a gear box with no electrics then IP60 would prevent damaging grit from getting between the gears but allow harmless water to cool them.

 

[riveralt]

Researching on the internet, I have been getting mixed messages. The cabinet concerned is:
http://www.croydex.com/products/377-thames-illuminated-cabinet.aspx

I would be very grateful for an explanation of why it can't be installed in Zone 2 (in addition to what is stated on the web site).

Many thanks
Alan

As BAS says, it is the manufacturers who have stated this piece of equipment can only be used outisde the zones. Furthermore, they specifically refer to the current 17th edition regulations concerning what constitutes an outside zone.

So there are no mixed messages here, Reg 134.1.1 states ......electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment.

 

[JohnW2]

IP 24 is possible. .... The 2 prevents objects 12 mm or larger getting to places inside the equipment where there is a hazard to them from anything, gear wheels, blades, hot surfaces etc. The 4 is to prevent water or other liquids reaching parts where the liquid could cause a problem and allows for barriers inside the equipment to deflect incoming liquids away from the parts where liquid would be a hazard.

Sensible though that may be, I don't think that the definitions of IP ratings are actually quite as 'functional' as you suggest. To the best of my knowledge, they relate simply and only to prevention of insertion of objects and ingress of water into an enclosure. I see nothing about IPx4 being satisfied if, have 'ingressed' into the enclosure through, say, an 11.5mm hole, water is deflected away from water-sensitive parts.

... or have I missed something?

The bottom line is that I would not personally want anything electrical in an IP2x enclosure anywhere near a risk of water splashes. In any event, I agree with everyone else who has pointed out that the manufacturer's instructions reign supreme in this situation, which is what matters to the OP.

Kind Regards, John

 

[alanp2000]

[So there are no mixed messages here, Reg 134.1.1 states ......electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment.[/quote]

Thanks for the clear guidance. I will check with the manufacturer.

 

[stillp]

IP 24 is possible. .... The 2 prevents objects 12 mm or larger getting to places inside the equipment where there is a hazard to them from anything, gear wheels, blades, hot surfaces etc. The 4 is to prevent water or other liquids reaching parts where the liquid could cause a problem and allows for barriers inside the equipment to deflect incoming liquids away from the parts where liquid would be a hazard.

Sensible though that may be, I don't think that the definitions of IP ratings are actually quite as 'functional' as you suggest. To the best of my knowledge, they relate simply and only to prevention of insertion of objects and ingress of water into an enclosure. I see nothing about IPx4 being satisfied if, have 'ingressed' into the enclosure through, say, an 11.5mm hole, water is deflected away from water-sensitive parts.

... or have I missed something?

The bottom line is that I would not personally want anything electrical in an IP2x enclosure anywhere near a risk of water splashes. In any event, I agree with everyone else who has pointed out that the manufacturer's instructions reign supreme in this situation, which is what matters to the OP.

Kind Regards, John

John, I'm with Bernard on this one. IEC 60529 allows the entry of water provided it does not interfere with correct operation or impair safety. It is ver common for this to be achieved by the provision of drain holes.
However the IP ratings, as I've said in other threads, relate only to the equipment's ability to withstand a fairly short test, and only the manufacturer can state whether the equipment is suitable for use in a bathroom, and if so for which zones, so we can agree there.

 

[JohnW2]

John, I'm with Bernard on this one. IEC 60529 allows the entry of water provided it does not interfere with correct operation or impair safety. It is ver common for this to be achieved by the provision of drain holes.

Right, thanks. I've just looked and,as you say, the ratings talk in terms of 'harmful effects',not water ingressper se.

However, I remain confused. Unless the electrical parts are entirely enclosed in a secondary 'waterproof' enclosure, I would think it would be hard to be sure that water finding its way from an 11.5mm hole to a drain hole could be guaranteed to never have 'a harmful effect' en route.

However the IP ratings, as I've said in other threads, relate only to the equipment's ability to withstand a fairly short test .....

Quite, and not necessarily the large number of tests required to give reassurance that entering water would never find its way to somewhere where it could 'have harmful effects' on its way to the drain hole. Personally, I think I'll therefore stick to my bottom line, of not wanting IP2x anywhere near water!

In keeping with what you're saying, I must say that I was seriously shocked (not electrically!!) the first time I saw inside an electric shower unit. I had previously thought there would be all sorts of clever barriers to water inside, but found remarkably little other than the outer casing.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks for the clear guidance. I will check with the manufacturer.

If you could find the right person to speak to (I don't envy you that task!) you may get some sort of explanation for their position, but I find it very hard to believe that they would offer you any 'relaxation' of what their instructions say. It therefore may be of interest to contact them, but I very much doubt that it will 'help' you very much.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[stillp]

However, I remain confused. Unless the electrical parts are entirely enclosed in a secondary 'waterproof' enclosure, I would think it would be hard to be sure that water finding its way from an 11.5mm hole to a drain hole could be guaranteed to never have 'a harmful effect' en route.

John, not hard at all, if the 11.5 mm hole is the drain hole!
Also remember to pass the test it is not necessary to "guarantee" that water will never have a harmful effect, only to produce some test results showing that in a specific test the water was not present in such a quantity and place as to be harmful. Of course a good test house would make a judgement about the likelihood, but there are plenty of test houses that take test results too literally.

 

[JohnW2]

John, not hard at all, if the 11.5 mm hole is the drain hole!

I hadn't thought of that one - but, even in that case, if water 'splashes up' through that drain hole, and then 'runs back' before draining out through the hole, there's going to be a fair bit of chance involved in determining exactly what route it takes!

Also remember to pass the test it is not necessary to "guarantee" that water will never have a harmful effect, only to produce some test results showing that in a specific test the water was not present in such a quantity and place as to be harmful.

Exacly my point - given 'chance' factors, only a very larger number of tests would give reassurance that it was very unlikely (100% guarantee would obviously never be possible) that harmful effects would ever occur - hence my personal attitude to IP2x and water!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[stillp]

John,

I suspect that your house, like mine and every other I've been in, contains many, many items that are IP2X or worse that foreseeably could be splashed with water. We all have to take the likelihood into account.