Megaflow Pressure and Flow Rates

Hi,

I think you are miss understanding the 3 bar min pressure.
First of all, in most of mainland Europe, most mixers are limited to 3 bars, (at least the ones I have worked in i.e. Scandinavia and Germany).
All Hans grohe mixers have a pressure limiter at 3 bars, so even if you had 4 bars in to the mixer you would only get 3 bars through. The average of them work on 5-9 l/min at 3 bars. Their larger shower heads get through more water, but not at a higher pressure.

The high pressure mixers have smaller bore inside, so the only way you would get more water is to change them to a low pressure tap with larger bore.

Lolli
 
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What they have or not in europe is irrelevant to the regulations in this country, end off. :rolleyes:

I am an end user who has simply carried out additional research having been disappointed with the megaflow results so excuse any ignorance, but from what I have ascertained the 3 bar setting by megaflow is their choosing not any form of regulation, indeed i have subsequently discovered other makes of unvented cylender are set higher. Whether you consider irrelevant or not I'd still find interesting what megaflow set their PRVs at elsewhere (even if you don't).

And whilst I'm in a mood, the old boiler cannot and did not deliver anywhere near 40Ltrs/m of hot water, even at 20 bar. :LOL:

I don't believe I ever stated it did?

And now I'm going to take it out on a snooker table so good night.

I hope you won!
 
When you have great company, and enjoy the game, you always win, even when the scoreboard says different.

This Friday my team pick up, the League title, the prs winner and runner up, the singles winner, and the highest break :LOL:
 
Had it all checked by a different plumber to that who installed who reckons we've got 2.8 bar and only 28 l/min coming out the megaflow which is then 2.5 bar and 22 l/min once the other side of the 2 shower mixers.

I'd say that's absolutely normal. That's what I've measured, give or take, most often.
The valves are quite restrictive which will lose you some pressure from the 3.x set on the inlet valve. Ordinary house plumbing is perfectly likely to restrict the flow to 22l/min.
The WB would have restricted the flow, unless it was restricted elsewhere. In your case it was probably restricted at the shower head by small holes. With 4 bar , you would have got very fast water flow, which feels good. A bucket tipped over your head is a hell of a flow rate, but doesn't feel the same. That's how electric showers feel halfway reasonable, with a measly 4l/min flow rate.
Your flow and pressure DO sound adequate for an "exhilarating showering experience" but you WILL HAVE TO match the head to give what you want.

The later Megaflo inlet valves are less restrictive, so you could look at what you've got. Much of your resistance will be pipework though - it all has to be 22mm or larger for best results if it's any length - more than a couple of metres. Check your shower hose internal diameter is as big as poss, which means 13mm.

I use a 4.5 bar pump and not a particularly high flow rate, but the jets are fast and feel nice.

WHen I install unvented cylinders I usually put pressure gauges on the inlet and the outlet. They cost just a few quid but answer everyone's questions. Very often you'll find an enormous drop across a shower mixer, such as a Grohe.

I'm concerned about WHERE the inlet pressure/flow was measured. I wouldn't be surpriised if 4 bar in the road, with NO flow, became MUCH less than 3 bar with 20 litres/minute flow, at the inlet to the unvented cylinder.

It might sound haughty, but very very few plumbers fully understand dynamic/static pressures and flows and speeds and volumes...
You have to measure the pressure at several points along the route with the water going out of the shower (not disconnected halfway :rolleyes: ) to find how big the resistances are.
 
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First of all, in most of mainland Europe, most mixers are limited to 3 bars, (at least the ones I have worked in i.e. Scandinavia and Germany).
All Hans grohe mixers have a pressure limiter at 3 bars, so even if you had 4 bars in to the mixer you would only get 3 bars through. The average of them work on 5-9 l/min at 3 bars. Their larger shower heads get through more water, but not at a higher pressure.

For all the shower mixers I've seen in the UK, that's wrong, wrong and wrong.
 
Since most shower heads won't let 22l of water through anyway, you may now be getting a similar flow rate to before and a lower pressure,
Also wrong, for shower heads I've seen recently. They sometimes have a restrictor, but not a flow limiter. Many will dump 40l/min on you if you want them to and can supply them. FLow rate goes up with more pressure, though it isn't quite linear.
 
To Chris

" For all the shower mixers I've seen in the UK, that's wrong, wrong and wrong."



I was not refering to all the shower mixers in the UK, I was refering to the hans grohe ones, so either you haven't noticed it or you haven't seen any.
 
Had it all checked by a different plumber to that who installed who reckons we've got 2.8 bar and only 28 l/min coming out the megaflow which is then 2.5 bar and 22 l/min once the other side of the 2 shower mixers.

I'd say that's absolutely normal. That's what I've measured, give or take, most often.
The valves are quite restrictive which will lose you some pressure from the 3.x set on the inlet valve. Ordinary house plumbing is perfectly likely to restrict the flow to 22l/min.
The WB would have restricted the flow, unless it was restricted elsewhere. In your case it was probably restricted at the shower head by small holes. With 4 bar , you would have got very fast water flow, which feels good. A bucket tipped over your head is a hell of a flow rate, but doesn't feel the same. That's how electric showers feel halfway reasonable, with a measly 4l/min flow rate.
Your flow and pressure DO sound adequate for an "exhilarating showering experience" but you WILL HAVE TO match the head to give what you want.

I have to say i used to have an exhilarating shower experience with the 14/5 year old combi but the moment the megaflow went in, that experience went out! Perhaps I got used to what we had before and newer is worse as in many things in life

The later Megaflo inlet valves are less restrictive, so you could look at what you've got. Much of your resistance will be pipework though - it all has to be 22mm or larger for best results if it's any length - more than a couple of metres. Check your shower hose internal diameter is as big as poss, which means 13mm.

See below - I am beginning to think it's far more likely to be pressure than flow rate. I have separate 22mm all the way to the shower mixer (about 4m including the vertical runs down from the top of the megaflow under the floor 2m then up to the i-Box Hansgrohe mixer). I then have 15mm from the mixer to a fixed Hansgrohe raindance head and 15mm to an outlet with hose (don't know the bore) to a normal size head on a bar. I had a Hansgrohe raindance head at my last house run off a 3 bar Stuart Turner monsoon pump so know what they are capable of.

I use a 4.5 bar pump and not a particularly high flow rate, but the jets are fast and feel nice.

Wish i had big time!

WHen I install unvented cylinders I usually put pressure gauges on the inlet and the outlet. They cost just a few quid but answer everyone's questions. Very often you'll find an enormous drop across a shower mixer, such as a Grohe.

Great idea and something I should get done - where in London are you based if you fancy the job?

I'm concerned about WHERE the inlet pressure/flow was measured. I wouldn't be surpriised if 4 bar in the road, with NO flow, became MUCH less than 3 bar with 20 litres/minute flow, at the inlet to the unvented cylinder.

As per earlier posting "To be exact Thames Water measured the pressure and flow rate at the meter just outside our boundary as 4.2 bar and 40 l/min - this was after new mains was installed in our street and new bigger bore blue pipe from the mains to the meter. At the same time as they were digging it all up I had the blue pipe extended onto my land and joined to the old lead pipe leading into our house ready for the refurb works. In this form the pressure was measured as 4.0 bar and flow rate still 40 l/min at an inside tap fed directly off the incoming mains despite the lead and 15mm pipework restriction which surprised me - they provided certificate stating this and did have quite a fancy flow rate measuring device rather than a glorified cup."

It might sound haughty, but very very few plumbers fully understand dynamic/static pressures and flows and speeds and volumes...
You have to measure the pressure at several points along the route with the water going out of the shower (not disconnected halfway :rolleyes: ) to find how big the resistances are.

Thanks Chris

I've answered a few of your questions above in red.

Looks like it's simply an expensive mistake installing a megaflow rather than traditional gravity fed system with a couple of s##t hot monsoon pumps for the shower then!

Having read everyone's theories (and i am not a plumber as stated before, just a disappointed end user), for what it's worth here's what i have thought on reflection of reading everything:-

1. Before I had 4 bar/40L going into the combi and then maybe the combi sent out 20L of very hot water to the shower mixer.
2. Before I had 4 bar/40L cold water going straight to the shower mixer.
3. These were then mixed together, now i know that does not = 8 bar/40L, but on reflection I bet it was a dam sight better than the 2.8 bar/28L the megaflow is chucking out?!

So what I'd failed to understand previously nor anyone from megaflow/the plumber who installed point out is that megaflow balances the TOTAL pressure combined HW and CW to 3 bar whereas if HW and CW come from separate sources as I had before you can have 3-4 bar coming into the mixer from both the HW and CW = far more pressure at the shower - or am I missing something here?! If this is the case then would a possible solution be for just the one shower I really want cranked right up to have the CW feed to the mixer by-pass the balanced megaflow so I'd have the full megaflow pressure feeding just the HW into the mixer and the CW mains feeding just the CW into the mixer? I get that would mean that if another tap/appliance in the house was turned on I might get pressure/flow changes but as it's the ensuite shower I want to crank up which is only really ever used early morning this would be a compromise I'd happily make? Any views on this idea? Thanks in advance if there are.
MT.
 
As everyone keeps saying the fault is not the megaflow.

Is there restrictor rings fitted in the shower inlets for example.
 
As everyone keeps saying the fault is not the megaflow.

Is there restrictor rings fitted in the shower inlets for example.

I don't think you understand what i am getting at. There may not be a fault in the megaflow in so far as 2.8 - 3 bar is what they are set to pump out and reducing flow from 40 l/min to 28 l/min comes part and parcel of going through the PRV which must restrict flow rate more than any amount of debris in pipes or restrictor rings having seen the inside workings of the broken one which was replaced ...... BUT what I am saying is that in my opinion (and it doesn't bother me if you don't agree), is for my personal requirements this is less than I would like and less than I got before as I have tried explaining in my previous postings as well as explaining in this morning's post as to a theory why this is having read everyone's contribution. Namely:-
1. Before I had 4 bar/40L going into the combi and then maybe the combi sent out 20L of very hot water to the shower mixer.
2. Before I had 4 bar/40L cold water going straight to the shower mixer.
3. These were then mixed together, now i know that does not = 8 bar/40L, but on reflection I bet it was a dam sight better than the 2.8 bar/28L the megaflow is chucking out?!
Note the 2.8bar/28L reading is as the water leaves the megaflow and it's still 2.5bar/22-4L at the shower head and as previously stated I was able to compare before and after megaflow installation on the old pipework and shower so logic dictates it's simply that a megaflow isn't all it's cracked up to be IMHO (again it doesn't bother me if others don't agree). So now what I'm trying to do is see whether there is a relatively simple fix for just the shower, hence my idea:-
On just the shower have the CW feed to the mixer altered to by-pass the balanced megaflow so I'd have the full megaflow pressure feeding just the HW into the mixer and the CW mains feeding just the CW into the mixer? This might then be more akin to how the set up was before with the WB combi. Any comments on this idea - I will also ask Heatrae Sadia what they think about that idea.
Cheers.
MT.
 
and possibly put you in contention for a darwin award :)

set up issues. 40/l min and 4bar+ at inlet to property, no reason why you shouldn't achieve a very painful shower

Must be thick - don't really understand that post?
 
From what you have said,
you had an old high flow w/b storage combi on lead and 15mm and now have a 22/25 main and megaflow. There is no way on this planet that the storage combi could out perform the megaflow. You have some sort of restiction in your pipework. Do you have a water softner?
You might have got a higher pressure from combi (don't think you'd notice difference between 3 & 4 bar when showering) but the flow rate is a lot lower.
The problem is not the megaflow or controls, its the supply in or pipework out.
Hi and thanks for your message
You will see I have made another posting earlier this morning, I hear what you say but any thoughts on:-
1. Before I had 4 bar/40L going into the combi and then maybe the combi sent out 20L of very hot water to the shower mixer.
2. Before I had 4 bar/40L cold water going straight to the shower mixer.
3. These were then mixed together, now i know that does not = 8 bar/40L, but on reflection I bet it was a dam sight better than the 2.8 bar/28L the megaflow is chucking out?!
I was able to compare before and after megaflow installation on the old pipework and shower so logic dictates it's simply that a megaflow isn't all it's cracked up to be IMHO. So now what I'm trying to do is see whether there is a relatively simple fix for just the shower, hence my idea:-
On just the shower have the CW feed to the mixer altered to by-pass the balanced megaflow so I'd have the full megaflow pressure feeding just the HW into the mixer and the CW mains feeding just the CW into the mixer? This might then be more akin to how the set up was before with the WB combi. Any comments on this idea - I will also ask Heatrae Sadia what they think about that idea.
Cheers.
MLT.
 
And I say it's you that doesn't understand.

The WB is a high flow combi, with a small store, at the flow/pressure rates you think you had an hot shower would last about 3mins.

The Megaflow is not even in the same league, it's that much better. Start reading the posts and understand what is being said.

Time how long it takes to fill a 5Ltr bucket using the bath taps full on, and post the answer.

You are also misinterpreting the available pressure.

You said you had 40Ltrs at 4 bar, that then equates to 20 Ltrs for the hot and 20Ltrs for the cold, not 80Ltrs/m.
 
Has anyone else heard of removing the PRV on one of these? Given the thing has an 8 bar expansion relief valve for safety, I can't see any major reason not to give it a go other than invalidating the guarantee which quite frankly given I think it's a pretty useless bit of kit wouldn't concern me!"
But all I've had to date is being told I'll kill people and invalidate my house insurance in the process despite not suggesting I touch the 8 bar expansion relief valve - any views Iann?
Cheers.
MT.

I'm sorry it's not what you want to hear, but you must not remove the PRV. If you proceed to do so, it will have been completely pointless having had the cylinder installed by a G3 certified plumber as the installation will no longer be compliant. If the cylinder is designed, tested and instructed to be installed with a PRV upfront on the incoming cold supply, then you must fit one. No plumber worth their salt is going to recommend you remove or bypass it.

As above, so far I've been told if i remove the PVR and replace with a double check valve:-
1. I'll kill everyone in the house.
2. I'll invalidate my house insurance.
3. No plumber worth their salt would recommend doing this.

Well I have been keeping this bit quiet whilst i listened to what you all said on this, but do you know who suggested it? The Heatrae Sadia engineer whom came to replace the PRV that broke! Admittedly on the basis that "I haven't told you this and we can't then service it but there's no danger in doing so as you still have the safety valve set over double the PRV anyway. Don't listen to stories of one of these blowing the side off a house there's too many other safety devices built in". Comments please?!
 
I still have this pressure/flow rate at my outside tap - hope that makes sense?

Pressure and flow are not the same !

Whats important is the dynamic flow rate.

I am assuming you had 4 Bar STATIC and 40 li/min OPEN PIPE which means at NO pressure.

Whats relevant in your case is the DYNAMIC pressure.

See what flow rate you can get out whilst leaving 2 bar in the pipework. It will hardly be 20 li/min and thats probably why it does not meet your expectation.

Presure and flow should be GCSE science but its surprising how many plumbers dont understand the terms and their interrelationship.

Tony
 

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