CCTV Questions

[Billybjo]

I'm looking at installing a home CCTV solution, 3-4 cameras.
I've been trawling the web and the bewildering choice of solutions. I'm sure you basically get what you pay for. I'm prepared to spend upto about £2k.

I seem to have settled for an Apollo 4 channel DVR (not sure yet if to go for HD or Pro version).
There seems to be some scathing comments on some forums about the effectiveness of IR for detail such as peoples faces. I like the sound of the Dome PTZ DSS/Sens-Up cameras as we have every angle to the property covered by PIR floodlights (not too bright, only about 100W).

1) Anyone got experience of both IR & Sens-Up to make a comment on their preference and why?

2) I'd like to record a full D1 on every camera. It seems you need to pay good money for a DVR capable of that at 4 channels or above. The bit that confused me is that say a DVR can record D1 at 50fps, if I assume only 2 cameras need active movement recording at any one time, would 50fps be enough? Or do the DVRs dedicate 25fps per specific camera, and therefore only 2 cameras could ever record D1.

3) Most decent cameras seem to be bnc coax based, not RJ45. Most of my house is flood wired with UTP CAT5e. The most distance any of the cameras would need to run in terms of cable is about 50 feet. If I use CCTV baluns would I expect to see any degradation in the image over that setup?

4) Any better suggestions for DVR and/or camera choice?

Many thanks.

 

[Barsteward]

Why the ptz?

sens up ok, but in very dark situations there is a risk of blurring if subject moving quickly.
IR also ok in right scenario.

You don't need 25fps drop to 12 and it will be more than adequate, also save on storage.

Cat5 is fine too, just hang baluns on each end.

 

[Billybjo]

Why ptz - well for no other reason than it seems many of the DVRs can track a subject and zoom in closer automatically. So I thought why not give the camera the ability.

I like the look of the dome cameras better than bullet or larger types. Not so ugly and the subject is never quite sure which way the camera is pointing.

You said 15fps is ample. I was under the impression (maybe wrongly of course) that the police need 25fps at D1 is the film was actually to be used for evidence. Do you know the guidelines for that?

 

[Barsteward]

May i ask what you've been reading regarding the DVRs and auto tracking and zoom?

I agree regarding the domes and appearance, but that should not be the key reason for choosing a camera, especially if you require footage for evidence.

there are several issues to consider regarding footage and evidence. Not least of which is quality.
Consider the instances where a 'culprit' is caught on camera but is stood still. What benefit is 25fps?
Would you have close ups AND 120% of target?.

Usual scenario, if you are unlucky to get turned over but lucky enough to record the incident is, the local plod use your footage to help them identify the scroat but to rely on other evidence to convict.

 

[Billybjo]

I don't have specific links, as I've been browsing round 100s of web links.
But I thought the whole point of a PTZ camera and DVRs that can motion detect with PTZ, was that the camera followed the subject. I'm here for advice so if you are stating thats wrong, then I'm open to correction after all.

Yes quality is one of my prime aims here hence recording at D1. It would be an added bonus to get real time movement instead of jerky images, but if thats not realistic then ok. It seems I can achieve both in my budget, and large hard drives are very cheap these days. I would have thought stood still or moving is not the issue if recorded D1 at 25fps, maybe even 15fps as you suggest. If I really don't need all 4 cameras at 25fps, then certainly the cost of DVR reduces dramatically.

Can you explain the other important issues for evidence. I'm assuming one is date/time stamp, maybe another that recording is watermarked?
As I haven't yet purchased anything, its better I understand now than later.

 

[Atilla]

I can guarantee you the police will not be able to use your CCTV as "evidence" in the way you`re expecting (and no I`m not going to tell you why in open forum)

auto tracking is science fiction

 

[Billybjo]

What a waste of time posting if your going to be so arrogant and unhelpful.
Serious...really what is the point. Why not just explain your points, which would be far more helpful to me and others.

 

[bernardgreen]

Auto tracking ( moving the camera ) of a person or object is possible. But very expensive. The disadvantage of fully automatic auto tracking is that one "innocent" person can intentionally cause the camera to move away from looking at the location where a break in or other crime is going to happen.

 

[Atilla]

What a waste of time posting if your going to be so arrogant and unhelpful.
Serious...really what is the point. Why not just explain your points, which would be far more helpful to me and others.

you want "nice helpful advice" pay someone, or do you want an industry expert to stop you throwing good money away - listen to me, your budgets too small and you`ve googled too much.


Mryoung - assuming you actually are trade, I`m that guy you wish you were so back off.

 

[Billybjo]

Well last time I looked this was a free advice forum. I'm not expecting you be "mr nice", clearly you are a long way from even being curtious, let alone nice.

All I asked is that you explain your comments, instead of condesending remarks that are designed to do nothing but state "I know more than you and I'm not telling, nah nah nah".

If you are such an expert, there is your challenge....minus the chip on shoulder would be good.

And no I haven't googled too much, thank you.

By the way, I've just noticed you've removed your comments about IR & Sens-Up "sucking", and making fun at my budget.....Why?

 

[Atilla]

Well last time I looked this was a free advice forum. I'm not expecting you be "mr nice", clearly you are a long way from even being curtious, let alone nice.

All I asked is that you explain your comments, instead of condesending remarks that are designed to do nothing but state "I know more than you and I'm not telling, nah nah nah".

If you are such an expert, there is your challenge....minus the chip on shoulder would be good.

And no I haven't googled too much, thank you.

By the way, I've just noticed you've removed your comments about IR & Sens-Up "sucking", and making fun at my budget.....Why?

I didnt remove them


IR over illuminates everything in a cone shape

sens up just doesnt work - you cannot alter the laws of physics

you only "need" 6FPS to appear realtime.




chip? you`ve googled too many pages to remember which item barsteward asked about

lets put this simpler - you cannot DIY "quality CCTV"

 

[Billybjo]

Well if you didn't remove them, someone did. Are you saying those comments weren't there?....ok just seen they were moderated and removed. Something to learn from I think.

If IR and Sens-Up don’t work, what does work in the dark (if anything)?

I’ve just ran a video at 6fps, and it’s not what I’d call real time, it’s very jerky. I’m not saying I need 25fps, or even 15fps, but it can be achieved. So we’ll disagree on that one.

True I don’t have the links Barsteward asked for, never mind these things happen, its not the end of the world. But from what you are saying Auto Tracking simply isn’t possible. It seems it maybe but at a very high cost, so fine, I’ll accept that question as answered and most likely is well out of my budget.

For the quality issue, It seems you probably think I mean “the highest” quality, i.e something unachievable for DIY. It’s a subjective answer. What I can get is D1 at 25fps, even if I don’t need it. I would class that as good quality in the DIY framework. What I’m trying to establish is how reasonable a level of quality can be obtained at night.

 

[Barsteward]

Analytics is what you probably got confused with. This is not Auto tracking.
Some of the high end Manufacturers do cameras (not DVRs) with Auto tracking. Again, ok in the right scenario but as mentioned above, easily fooled and certainly would be in your proposed usage. Either way, they are out of your budget by a country mile or three.

Don't get hung up on fps and D1 and their relation to quality. 12-15 fps is more than acceptable, 6fps will do fine. Ask yourself what frame rate they use on large corporate sites and if the have the storage capacity for 25fps for 30 days and more?
Also, D1 does not mean all DVRs produce identical quality images at same settings. Some of the better mainstream trade units give better quality playback from lower settings than cheaper units give when set to best quality.
Note i mentioned playback. A world of difference between playback and viewng the images 'realtime'.

 

[Billybjo]

Barsteward,

Ok thanks, I'm in no doubt now from the responses whatever I read about Auto Tracking was not correct, or quite possibly I got the wrong end of the stick.

I'd be very interested in DVR recommendations. The Apollo ones I've been looking at range from about £250 for the lower end HD model, to £650+ for the higher end unit. I would appreciate any advice on units you think would be a better buy that you know provide the best quality under £1k.

Also the same goes for Dome cameras. Some examples I've looked at are:

http://www.rfconcepts.co.uk/dome_slim_outdoor_111h.htm

Not sure if the 3d-DNR/HSBLC are hype and don't really work.

And more expensive ones such as:

http://www.henrys.co.uk/cctv/ptzcctvcameras.htm

There seems to be little review information out there on specific kit, well stuff thats easy to find publically at least.

 

[Atilla]

Well if you didn't remove them, someone did. Are you saying those comments weren't there?....ok just seen they were moderated and removed. Something to learn from I think.

If IR and Sens-Up don’t work, what does work in the dark (if anything)?

I’ve just ran a video at 6fps, and it’s not what I’d call real time, it’s very jerky. I’m not saying I need 25fps, or even 15fps, but it can be achieved. So we’ll disagree on that one.

True I don’t have the links Barsteward asked for, never mind these things happen, its not the end of the world. But from what you are saying Auto Tracking simply isn’t possible. It seems it maybe but at a very high cost, so fine, I’ll accept that question as answered and most likely is well out of my budget.

For the quality issue, It seems you probably think I mean “the highest” quality, i.e something unachievable for DIY. It’s a subjective answer. What I can get is D1 at 25fps, even if I don’t need it. I would class that as good quality in the DIY framework. What I’m trying to establish is how reasonable a level of quality can be obtained at night.

so there you go, you simply wanted to argue - forget it, go waste your money.