Ceeform outlets in a household or similar premises

[Adam_151]

I nearly posted this is a reply in another thread where the issue came up, but decided to split it off instead of de-railing the thread.

We all know of the requirement in 553.1.201 for socket outlets in household and similar premises to be shuttered, so would seemingly preclude BS4343 type connectors (although at least one well known publication appears to take the view that they can be installed outside of the dwelling itself and implies that within a shed would not fall under this, which seems to be stretching it a bit)
...
Personally I would have no issue with an interlocked type ceefrom socket installed domestically, as while not meeting the wording of the regs, does I feel, meet the spirit of what they are seeking to acheive, e.g. protection against kids sticking mother's best kitchen sisscors in L&N and having it go pop! Especially as BS7671 later adopted the same solution in section 708 to deal with the same issue in a different location. Now technically speaking, one ought to declare it as a deviation, I suppose, but I shouldn't imagine many do.

Back to the original regulation, the 'or similar premises is rather wishy washy wording, I wouldn't say a primary school classroom is a similar premises, but clearly the same issue applies here, so its cleary intended to apply here, but you kind of have to look at the reasoning behind the reg, rather than simply its wording to see that, should we include hotels in the scope? Likely the answer would be yes to the rooms and suites, but not to the swimming pool plant room (unshuttered sockets probably low down on the list of hazards kids could find in there!)

 

[plugwash]

Does BS7671 actually define shutted anywhere?

 

[SUNRAY]

I'd find it difficult to code an interlocked socket, yes I'd list as a deviation but I think even that may be classed as arse covering by some.
However how many domestics would accept the cost of such a socket?

 

[SUNRAY]

Does BS7671 actually define shutted anywhere?

If it doesn't now, I believe it did.

 

[Adam_151]

However how many domestics would accept the cost of such a socket?

They are not that dear until you are gointo into the ones that incorparte space to fit a local RCD, the 8 by 6 size rotary switch and socket arrangements are not much more than about 30 squids

 

[SUNRAY]

They are not that dear until you are gointo into the ones that incorparte space to fit a local RCD, the 8 by 6 size rotary switch and socket arrangements are not much more than about 30 squids

Yes but a surface mounted socket can be had for 10% of that and how many of Joe Public would see any value in that 90%?

 

[JohnD]

I have one in an outdoor enclosure that was intended for a motorhome or caravan. Is that considered acceptable?

 

[flameport]

If someone had a good reason for needing such a thing on domestic, then I would install one. It would be interlocked, as it would be in any other location.

However there are very few reasons for such things. Caravans are not one of them, as that leads to the mess of PME supplies not being allowed for caravans.
Neither is a connector for an EVSE as in the other thread.

I did fit one many years ago for a tumble dryer, which was some oversized thing which needed about 20 amps. Domestic location but was used for laundry which was brought in from somewhere else.

 

[mattylad]

All the sockets on the wall at work have shutters on the front, you have to pull it down before plugging in.

So what' the difference?

 

[SUNRAY]

All the sockets on the wall at work have shutters on the front, you have to pull it down before plugging in.

So what' the difference?

If only it were that simple

 

[ericmark]

I have seen them used for essential services so with a power failure the essential services consumer unit can be unplugged and plugged into a generator instead, but it was in the garage not main house. They used the same generator as they used with the motor home, so wanted the same plug and sockets. And near every small generator hired seems to come with the Ceeform sockets so there is not really any option.

Yes you can get the version with interlocked switches, but children play in caravan sites, and they have in the main no interlocking switching, so can't see why allowed in places where general public can access but not in the home?

I did use a 13 amp socket to supply my caravan at home, it supplied one class II charger to keep battery topped up, this was due to the built in charger baking the battery when a cell when short circuit, but the rule in my version of BS7671:2008 which is now out of date, says caravan sites, not storage at home.

Where my father-in-law stored his motor home it was very close to the meter boxes, and one could easy touch both the motor home and the gas meter at the same time, so to have them on a different earthing system would be a greater risk than on the same earthing system, and on concrete slabs or latter brick sets, on rubber tyres, very unlikely to be a hazard with a TN-C-S supply. Even the caravan when we had one, had plastic bases on the legs, so was not connected to the earth below it.

We all know the problem, TN-C-S should have never been allowed, we have the same at work, the charging point is within touching distance of the building, which is metal framed, so the TT supply to the charging point is not really a good idea, it is too close, for a caravan site where the caravan is lived in not just stored, the fire regulations require around 2 meters from any building, so a human can't touch both at the same time.

However to have adaptors from 13 amp to 16 amp to plug the caravan in on a risk assessment must be worse to using all 16 amp plugs and sockets. And the live parts would be hard to access, as we move up to 32 and 63 amp sockets the pins get larger so maybe should be considered in a different light.

The same with EV chargers, it seems using a 13 amp outlet does not need any special notifying but a 32 amp does, but the risks of loss of PEN are the same with both, also the 6 mA DC detection and types of RCD. I have heard it said the 13 amp version is only for emergencies, however I know people in rented accommodation who's only option is 13 amp at home, or travailing to local charge point, and even the local charge point is now turned off at night, due to people sitting there plugging the car in every 15 minutes which they could get power for to allow time to set up charge on app, so their only over night option is home charging.

Plus if you can plug in a quad, then why not a car? I note with the quad they have a EU standard plug, it does not say if German or French, so those with electric quads, have no option but with EU sockets or adaptors. Which will be 16 amp although I think the quad only draws 10 amp.

So this needs a 16 amp socket or adaptor, and unlike the lawn mower which is unlikely to be used in the rain, and is class II, this is likely to be parked outside in all weathers, and can't plug directly into EV charging points or 13 amp sockets without an adaptor.

 

[plugwash]

I have one in an outdoor enclosure that was intended for a motorhome or caravan. Is that considered acceptable?

The rules for caravan sites in BS7671 were recently changed to require interlocked outlets, but the change is pretty recent, so I suspect your unit is not interlocked.

It seems BS7671 doesn't actually define shuttered, so whether the spring loaded flap on a ceeform can be considered a shutter seems open to interpretation. I think most would agree it provides more protection than a socket with completely open holes, but less protection than a BS1363 style shutter.

 

[JohnW2]

It seems BS7671 doesn't actually define shuttered, so whether the spring loaded flap on a ceeform can be considered a shutter seems open to interpretation. I think most would agree it provides more protection than a socket with completely open holes, but less protection than a BS1363 style shutter.

As you say, BS7671 does not define "shuttered". Whilst I agree with you that having a "spring loaded flap" is better than "completely open holes", I rather doubt that it was the intention that such a manually-operated flap would qualify acceptably as "shuttered". After all, it would be conceptually similar to having a BS1363-type socket whose shutters could be opened manually by means of some lever/whatever.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I would think most shutters are manually operated.

 

[JohnW2]

I would think most shutters are manually operated.

You know exactly what I meant and was saying

There is obviously a very big difference between having a 'sprint-loaded flap' that one could simply lift 'manually' and the shutters of a BS1363 socket which can be opened by ('manually') inserting a BS1363 plug (or other 'tool') into it, even by a child.

Do you personally believe that a spring-loaded flap on a EN 60309-2: / BS 4343 socket provides enough 'protection' for it to qualify as a "shuttered" socket?

Kind Regards, John