Certification Differences

[MickGreen]

I am wondering what the differnences are in electrical certification given there has been quite a lot of conversation about part P etc...

It does seem that there isn't anyone out there willing to provide certification for part P for work that someone else has installed but what is the difference in asking someone to provide a safety certificate when you sell your house for example?

Is it not the same thing? All you are asking someone to do is check that the circuits are safe and in accordance with the regulations aren't you?

Sorry for the naivety but I was curious given many people are in this situation.

Mick

 

[skenk]

When you do an install, an Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) is produced, along with test results. This must be compiled by the spark who did the work. At any time a Periodic Inspection Report (PIR) can be done which has much the same information as an EIC, including test results from all the circuits. Any spark can do a PIR. If the installation passes the PIR then your electrics are up to scratch (or thereabouts).

However if you come to sell your house and the recent electrical work has not been notified to the LABC (England & Wales) then you will likely have a problem, PIR or not.

 

[flameport]

All of the schemes (NAPIT, ELECSA etc) only allow their members to notify work which they have done themselves. The certificate the householder gets confirms that the work complies with building regulations. It does not contain any specific details of the circuits, test results or anything else.
These are only required for notifable works, such as new circuits, work in kitchens, bathrooms, etc.

Not notifiying is against the law, and people could be prosecuted for not notifiyng LABC either directly or via one of the schemes. (Although it is very unlikely).
This is the same as if you failed to notify before fitting new windows in your house, or built an extension, changed the drains, installed a hot water cylinder and so on.

The other certificate (usually an Electrical Installation Certificate) is the one which contains test results and circuit details. This documents states that the installation complies with BS7671.
These should be issued for all work, and can be issued by people who are not members of any scheme (the only requirement being that the person completing the certificate is conpetent to do so.)

There is no legal requirement for an electrical installation to comply with BS7671, or to have a certificate issued.
If you want someone to test and inspect an installation to confirm it is safe, this can be done by any competent person. However, there is no legal requirement for this to be done, and people doing these don't have to belong to any scheme either. Additionally, no inspection will cover cables concealed in walls or floors, and there will be several other exclusions as well, such as only inspecting a percentage of socket outlets etc.

The usual problem is that people carry out notifiable works, and then want someone else to submit details to building control. This will NOT happen, because:
1. None of the schemes allow this.
2. If the person doing the work is not a scheme member, they have already broken the law by not notifiying - it should have been notified before work started. Having someone else do the notification later on won't help.
3. There is a lot more to installing circuits properly than just doing a few tests at the end. Other considerations include where cables are installed, what type of cable, position and size of holes in walls/joists, sealing holes in ceilings to block moisture, selecting the correct type of light fitting, installing accessories in the correct places and the correct height, energy efficiency, ventilation, not breaching fire barriers, and plenty more.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Plus (in theory) when a registered person self-certifies work as being compliant with the Building Regulations he is certifying that what he did complied with all of the relevant ones, not just P1.

As you might imagine, they didn't start at P when they were labelling the various parts of the Building Regs, they started at A, so there's a lot more that needs to be complied with than just Part P.

An EIC will show that the work complied with Part P. A PIR might show that it might have complied. Neither one will show that it complied with Part A, Part B, Part C.....

 

[empip]

http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/BathNES/e...ol/Electrical+safety+regulations+-+Part+P.htm

2. Building regulation application - if this route is chosen there are two options:-

(a). A qualified, registered electrician carries out or inspects the work. They can issue a design, installation and test certificate under BS7671. Building Control will accept the certificate as evidence that the work complies with Part P. Additional inspections and tests by Building Control may be carried out.

(b). Where the work is carried out by an unregistered electrician or is a DIY installation, Building Control will need to inspect and test the work to ensure it complies with Part P. Alternatively the applicant can have the work inspected and tested by a registered electrician/inspector as in (a) above. They will then be able to issue a Periodic Inspection Report under BS 7671.

That suggests a PIR would be acceptable to BANES council building control.
-p-

 

[Taylortwocities]

And they are wrong to state that.

In which state is Banes, anyway? Shouldn't keep your posts on the "Electrics Outside of UK" forum??

 

[Fred_Fanackapan]

Bath And NE Somerset

 

[ericmark]

1) Part P completion cert shows the work was either overseen by building control or completed by a registered company/electrician it is only required for some electrical work and although a legal requirement gives very little information.
2) Minor works cert is completed for all work not requiring a installation cert and shows the reading taken and is where the electrician says he has done everything required correctly or if not why not.
3) The installation cert comes in tow basic types single signature and multi signature. There can be separate signatures for design, installation and inspection and testing and where for example a DIY person has done some work he would sign the first two then get electrician who has tested to sign third for testing and inspection only. However to sign any of the sections one must have the required skills and this presents problems with DIY personnel to show they have required skills.
4) Periodic inspection certificate before the inspection starts the inspector should be given the minor works and/or installation certificates for the installation and he should use these to ensure nothing has deteriorated since the original install. Where the previous certs are not available he will only be able to identify some faults and it is not in any way a replacement for an installation cert. In order to make reading easier for non technical people he will normally code faults.
Code 1 presents an immediate danger and he would also recommend the circuit is turned off or left off. i.e. exposed live wires.
Code 2 is where a fault is likely to present danger but not immediate i.e. no earths to class II lighting, where it could easy be changed to class I.
Code 3 means he can't test it. For example fuse has seal on it or unable to remove power.
Code 4 means we now consider the installation as not good enough but when it was installed this was permitted. For example no RCD protection.

So a code 4 warns that some time in the future this will need updating it says previous edition to regulations used now so when the next one is issues this will likely move to a code 2 and it helps when planning future work.
A code 3 may mean the fuse boxes need changing because of the anti-flash material being now banned so could be very serious on the other hand it may mean the tests need doing at Christmas when the server can be turned off.
A code 2 should normally be rectified within the year and one would hope no code 2 would show up on subsequent tests.
A code 1 will normally mean the circuit is isolated until repaired.

In commercial the electrician can turn off the power where he sees a danger and has a legal duty to do this. But in domestic it is not so easy as before one can may a premises uninhabitable there are all sorts of procedure to go through and it is often illegal to turn off gas, water, or electric supplies. Often in order to test the electrician has to get permission to remove the supply to test. Once removed he would not be able to re-commission a dangerous supply but he would not be allowed to lock it off only allowed to affix a notice to it and fit something like a tie wrap to prevent accidental re-energisation. Of course where its removal would not make the house inhabitable he can remove supply i.e. shower supply where there is also a bath. In same way a Gas safe guy can isolate a gas fire where there is central heating.
Normally where the premises are dangerous he would inform the supplier who can remove the supply and inform the authorities that people require re-housing.

Should anything as serous as this happen then the local authority would of course be involved and we now have come full circle and back to Part P. The Part P regulation allows the local authority to prosecute those responsible far easier. In the same was as the Queen can devolve parliament but has never needed to use the power the local authority as far as I am aware has never taken a DIY person working on their own house to court. They have taken firms to court both for sub standard work and for claiming to be registered when they are not. But lets face it any DIY man who is told fix that or end up in court is unlikely to dig in his heals and refuse to fix it. Hence no court hearing as yet.