Part P and selling a property

[craiginuk]

Hi,

I am selling a rental flat which was rewired in 2008. It was organised through lettings agency so am confident was all legit etc. I received a green "Part P Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate" from the installer which I have always kept on file.

The seller questionaiire however is asking me for:
a)A copy of the signed BS7671 Electrical Safety Certificate
b)The Installers Building regulations Compliance Certificate
c)The Building Control Completion certificate.

Do I need all of these or just 1. Is the hand filled and signed Green Part P ok or do i need more?

Thanks in advance.

Craig

 

[EFLImpudence]

a)A copy of the signed BS7671 Electrical Safety Certificate

There is no such thing.

b)The Installers Building regulations Compliance Certificate

You should have received one shortly after the EIC
if the electrician was a member of a Competent Person Scheme (will be on the certificate).

OR

c)The Building Control Completion certificate.

You should have received one shortly after the EIC
if the electrician was not a member.

Do I need all of these or just 1.

One or the other.

 

[ericmark]

There is no need to have an electrical installation certificate where work is inspected by the local authority building control (LABC) they can issue a completion certificate without having an electrical installation certificate. In fact they can't issue an electrical installation certificate.

Under normal procedure the electrician will write out and sign either an installation certificate or minor works certificate for all work completed. Where required this will be forwarded to LABC who then will issue a completion certificate. Normally the builder or electrician will do this for the owner, but he does no have to it is up to the owner to ensure it is done.

Where the electrician used is a member of a scheme then instead of a completion certificate you get a compliance certificate.

I have seen where building work is done, there being errors made in the notifying process, where the electrician was not a scheme member, and the electrical work should have been included on the completion certificate, but some one forgot, or did not realise, and the LABC were under the impression the electrician was a scheme member. Only when the electrician handed the builder the installation certificate saying, the building inspector will need to have this, did any one realise there had been a lack of communications.

It may be the installation certificate you have should have been taken to the LABC to get a completion certificate? Or it could be the completion or compliance certificate was posted to the flat rather than letting agents and not passed on.

But with the latter there should be a record to the work completed and be it scheme member or not the LABC should have it on file.

 

[EFLImpudence]

There is no need to have an electrical installation certificate where work is inspected by the local authority building control (LABC)

Whoever did the rewire must issue an EIC regardless of which procedure is used.

 

[securespark]

a)A copy of the signed BS7671 Electrical Safety Certificate

There is no such thing.

In their ignorance, I think they are referring to the EIC.

You think people in the know would use the correct nomenclature. No wonder Joe Public get confused...

 

[ericmark]

There is no need to have an electrical installation certificate where work is inspected by the local authority building control (LABC)

Whoever did the rewire must issue an EIC regardless of which procedure is used.

I would agree in a way, but the Part P document states how the LA building inspector can test the installation, and if it passes issue a completion certificate, but in this case he does not issue an installation certificate. It would seem this is the odd one out.

 

[EFLImpudence]

There is no need to have an electrical installation certificate where work is inspected by the local authority building control (LABC)

Whoever did the rewire must issue an EIC regardless of which procedure is used.

I would agree in a way, but the Part P document states how the LA building inspector can test the installation, and if it passes issue a completion certificate, but in this case he does not issue an installation certificate. It would seem this is the odd one out.

Maybe, but the installer must.

It's not really down to the part P document.
The installer must issue an EIC.

I don't know why you think otherwise.

 

[JohnW2]

There is no need to have an electrical installation certificate where work is inspected by the local authority building control (LABC)

Whoever did the rewire must issue an EIC regardless of which procedure is used.

I would agree in a way, but the Part P document states how the LA building inspector can test the installation, and if it passes issue a completion certificate, but in this case he does not issue an installation certificate. It would seem this is the odd one out.

That raises an interesting point, which I don't think has ever occurred to me before. We're used to saying that anyone who undertakes electrical work, even a DIYer, should theoretically issue an EIC (or MWC). However, if the LABC route is being used because the person concerned cannot be relied upon to undertake the design and/or installation and/or testing without supervision/oversight, it's difficult to see how they could be expected to sign the declarations for some (or all) of the sections of an EIC.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Surely that only arises because the installer has wrongly NOT issued an EIC - is it called regularisation'?.

Who, here would rewire a house and not issue an EIC?

 

[JohnW2]

Surely that only arises because the installer has wrongly NOT issued an EIC - is it called regularisation'?.

In terms of this thread (the work having been done professionally), that may be right, but I was talking generally. If, for example, a DIYer did not have the equipment or knowledge/skills to undertake the required testing, and therefore was using the LABC notification route, (s)he could obviously not complete the testing part of an EIC (or sign the associated declaration) - and possibly might not be able to sign the other declarations either. In such a situation, there could not be a complete EIC (and certainly not a Schedule of test results) unless LABC supplied it - which I don't think they usually do.

Who, here would rewire a house and not issue an EIC?

As above, a DIYer who was unable to test, for a start. When you ask about "Who, here...", don't forget that this is a DIY forum!

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Surely that only arises because the installer has wrongly NOT issued an EIC - is it called regularisation'?.

In terms of this thread (the work having been done professionally), that may be right, but I was talking generally. If, for example, a DIYer did not have the equipment or knowledge/skills to undertake the required testing, and therefore was using the LABC notification route, (s)he could obviously not complete the testing part of an EIC (or sign the associated declaration) - and possibly might not be able to sign the other declarations either. In such a situation, there could not be a complete EIC (and certainly not a Schedule of test results) unless LABC supplied it - which I don't think they usually do.

I have had no experience of the LABC but I thought for such work they used a trusted electrician who would.

Are you saying LABCs allow 'incompetents' to do the work and then issue a Certificate of Completion" without testing?

If that IS what they do then it hardly complies with (the actual) Part P of BR, or Part 6 of BGB.

Who, here would rewire a house and not issue an EIC?

As above, a DIYer who was unable to test, for a start. When you ask about "Who, here...", don't forget that this is a DIY forum!

Fair enough but the question is still appropriate.



This seems to be about what LABCs actually do - because they can - and what they should do.
If what they actually do is wrong then it is not acceptable.

 

[ericmark]

I personally feel an installation certificate should be completed but my point is since under the Part P rules there is a case where it may not be issued to demand it would be wrong.

So
Either a completion certificate from the LABC.

Or a compliance certificate and installation certificate.

One could also have an installation certificate with a completion certificate but not always.

To me it's a LACB cop out where they do not have to show the test results so with a small job they can get away without testing and no one can prove they didn't test.

I had to submit the installation certificate to the LABC with the job I did the inspector admitted he did not have the skills required and really wanted to get a third party to test which I would have to pay for. My son was rejected as not having enough qualifications he only had a C&G 2391 but I was accepted as I had a degree in electrical and electronic engineering which shows just how little the inspector knew.

From the description I will still guess the completion or compliance certificate was posted to the property, and simply not passed on by the tenants.

The question is therefore where when the method of registering and if used scheme operator is unknown does one get a replacement from? I would guess LABC would be the route as to if they issue a replacement or if they just direct you to who issued it I don't know.

As a buyer I would have thought it would be safer to get the certificate direct from council if that was possible.

 

[JohnW2]

I have had no experience of the LABC but I thought for such work they used a trusted electrician who would.

I also have minimal experience of the LABC process - but, yes, I think they often do as you say (sub-contract testing to a 'trusted electrician'). In that case, the 'trusted electrician' will presumably provide a Schedule of test results to the LABC and could theoretically sign the Testing part of an IEC (but if (s)he had not been involved prior to testing, obviously could not complete the Design or Installation sections of an IEC). However, the point we are discussing is that, AFAIAA, I don't think that the LABC pass on that Schedule of Test results (and/or a 'partial IEC') to the householder.

Are you saying LABCs allow 'incompetents' to do the work and then issue a Certificate of Completion" without testing?

Not at all, if the system works as (presumably) intended. AIUI, the point of the notification process is so that LABC can scrutinise, and then 'approve' (if necessary after changes), the Design, then 'oversee' the Installation process and finally arrange for testing to be undertaken by a 'trusted electrician' whom is appointed, when the work is being undertaken by someone who is deemed to not necessarily be 'competent' to do those things themselves (i.e. someone who was not a self-certifying electrician).

If that is the case, only they (the LABC) (as the people who have 'overseen' these activities) could really complete the Design and Installation parts of an IEC, and only the appointed 'trusted electrician' could complete the Testing part - but I presume/suspect that none of that actually happens, and that the householder ends up with no paperwork other than a Completion Certificate. Whether one can, by asking, at least get the test results from an LABC (or their 'trusted electrician'), I haven't got a clue! Since they will usually be charging the applicant for testing, it would seem a bit rich for them to refuse to hand over the results!

Kind Regards, John