Chimney breast removal and Gallows Brackets

[dhb3858]

Hi peeps, can anybody advise me on a previously removed chimney breast solution. The house is for sale and has just been subject of a structural survey which indicated a problem with a previously removed chimney breast. It was removed prior to our ownership 17 years ago and was removed from ground floor level into the loft space. The bricks are currently supported by gallows brackets either side bolted into the party wall with a 6mm x 100mm x 1200mm metal plate. Over the 17 years in our ownership there has never been any evidence of collapse above the gallows brackets, however the structural engineer for the purchaser has stated the following requirement:
'Carefully prop the chimney stack from roof void to ground floor and replace the existing steel plate and gallows brackets with steel joists calculated to size. Building Regulations Approval Notice must also be obtained.'
So my question is, Should the purchasers structural engineer stipulated the calculated size or is he suggesting I should get my own SE to tell me the size. Is is likely the BC officer will tell me the size?
any help will be much appreciated.

 

[dann09]

These issues have been much discussed on here. Perhaps, research them.

Briefly:
Its possible to get retrospective approval from your local council.


Various deadlines are required by different councils for when unapproved work is considered a live issue.

Some councils offer a detailed and comprehensive inspection of unapproved work by a BCO - they charge accordingly.

For historic unapproved work the BCO's are mainly concerned with safety - safety issues have no deadline.

Your next call should be to your solicitor, she or he would advise you on your next step.
Do you still have the original mortgage(?) surveyors report from when you bought the house?

FWIW: Dont allow the buyers SE to dictate -
Typically, BCO's dont recommend, they see that "recommendations" (Bldg Regs/plans) have been properly carried out.

 

[tony1851]

If it was removed more than 17 years ago, what's the problem? Surely if the brackets were not safe, any problem would have shown by now.

Although most Bulding Inspectors nowadays do not like gallows brackets, some will accept them if certain criteria are met.

Rather than pay for new steel to be put in (plus SE costs for calculating the steel beam size plus building control fee) sound out your local building control dept's view on gallows brackets first.

Anyone acting for the purchasers should not be giving advice on what they think should be done.

 

[^woody^]

If you are selling and the buyer has instructed a survey, then that surveyor is working for the buyer not you

In that context he has no liability to you and can not specify work for you. Further if things go wrong, you have no come-back at all against him. You should not rely on anything he says

This is a bit odd, as a home survey would not go into specifying work.

 

[RonnyRaygun]

The bricks are currently supported by gallows brackets either side bolted into the party wall with a 6mm x 100mm x 1200mm metal plate.

6mm plate

Agree with what Tony said, if anything was going to happen, it would have by now...but a 6mm plate spanning 1.2m is doing absolutely nothing to hold up your chimney.

Basically, the chimney breast masonry is arching between the gallows brackets, but the gallows brackets themselves are fine as long as there is a chimney breast on the opposite side of the wall helping keep the wall axially loaded.

 

[datadiyer]

Hi dhb3858,

Just thought i'd answer at least one of your questions. I'm in the middle of liasing with building inspector in the removal of my chimney breast, and he said he would be able to calculate RSJ size/strength to save me on stuctural engineer costs. Although i'm not sure if I need a SE now or not!: But that's another story.
//www.diynot.com/forums/building/chimney-breast-removal.372764/

But in short, it is possible to get a building control inspector able to calculate suitable steel for you.

Cheers,

Datadiyer.

 

[tony1851]

But in short, it is possible to get a building control inspector able to calculate suitable steel for you.

Definitely not. The building inspector is acting well out of his remit if he calculates a steel beam for a householder.
If the beam failed, the householder would almost certainly have no comeback against the council.
The inspector's job is to check what is there. If he requires calcs, he would expect you to get them from an independant SE, and then these are checked by the council's own structural engineer.

 

[datadiyer]

Hi Tony,

I know what you are saying and is probably right. Although my building inspector literally said to me that "I can calculate the steel required to save you money on a strucural engineer". I would think he could only do this if he is a qualified structural engineer, and yes you're right, you would have to have it in writing for the go ahead on his calculations, I would think you would probably have a comeback with the council in this scenario. But hey, this is all pie in the sky, the inpector i've been dealing with has told me he is happy for me to go ahead with three steel beams (yes you read correctly, THREE RSJ's. I thought by passing the SE at £280 it would be more economical to purchase the 3 beams (although I probably need just the one as you mentioned in my post Tony). My reworkings has involved obviously more labour so it's probably not economically viable. So, is he a qualified SE?, who knows? but if I am going to go ahead, he has spoken to my builder and myself and stated 3 RSJ's will suffice, BUT, he hasn't mentioned which strength to use, so I guess he isn't a qualified SE, just a nice chap trying to save me money. So, although he said he would calculate the steel beams required, he hasn't done that as he certainly hasn't measured anything at my home. So I think he just gave me a completely over engineered solution which he would be happy for me to proceed with, without consulting a SE. I agree with you Tony after todays discussions with builder & inspector that he is out of his remit. Sorry for rambling, this is getting complicated!
Cheers,
Datadiyer.[/i]

 

[tony1851]

datadiyer;

An interesting scenario!

Just a few points in response to your post;

1. You do not have to be a chartered engineer to undertake structural calculations for anybody; anyone can do this.

2. Is this inspector doing it for you for free? Free or not, you would not have any comeback on the Council if there were any problems. I would think it not just unethical but probably against his contract to do calculations for jobs he is supervising, paid or not.

3. If he is suggesting you need three beams to support a chimney breast, then he has had no experince of this.

4. If 3 beams + free calcs is cheaper than 1 beam + SEs costs, then I suppose it's a no-brainer. Good luck with it.

 

[Norcon]

When the beam rusts it will probably fall down anyways.
Maybe you should encase it in concrete just in case.

 

[datadiyer]

Hi Tony,

1. Yes, I agree with this, but if anything went wrong you would want liabilty I guess.

2. He hasn't actually given me a price yet, although it should be the cheaper end of the scale as he would only have to make the one visit, but "calculating" to "save me money" I would think implies he wouldn't be charging.
Regarding liability, you're right in that you wouldn't have any comeback with the council, but I would guess only a judge would be able to decide that.

3. Yes, I agree, THREE RSJ's with no strenghs stated = not much experience at best.

4. The only problem is the extra labour work for the extra 2 RSJ's, it would then work out more labour costs (i'm not doing this myself) than SE & 1 beam (and a lot more hastle as I have electrical cables down wall of both alcoves.

 

[tony1851]

I smell a rodent with this inspector; be careful.