Chimney, Flue & Real-Effect Fire question

[Phill D]

Hi all.
I've just spent a long while wading through the archives for an answer to my question/s and couldn't find anything.
Maybe you can help.

I've just had my flue swept and a I've installed a 5" flexible liner (7" wouldn't fit)
The sweep said that I wont be able to install a 'real-effect' gas fire with a 5" flue. Apparantly my class 1 chimney is now a class 2 and you cant put a real-effect in a class 2.

This is really annoying because I've spent a lot of time ripping out the old fire and completely rebuilding the front of the fireplace with the hope of having a R-E Fire installed.

So is he right or is he wrong?

 

[breezer]

ask the manufacturer of the fire you intend to buy

 

[Malc]

Not meaning to put you off but here are some facts I discovered which I hadn't really thought of before.

1. RE are woefully inefficient. The Flavel brochure gives figures most don't seem to. A typical Flavel fire is High 6.5/3.3 kW, low 2.2/1.0 kW. The figures are input/output so about 50% or less efficiency. That makes full priced electricity a comparable in cost.

2. RE always give out heat so you can only use it when cold, unlike electric flame effect where you can just have the effect even in summer.

 

[Phill D]

Thanks for your replies.

I did only want the fire for the effect rather than heat, so Im not really concerned with money going up the chimney. But I see your point Malc. It would be always off in the summertime.

I didnt realise you could get an electric RE Fire. I'll look into this.

 

[legs-akimbo]

If using your new chimney lining is not an option perhaps installing a fire with a power flue might be an option. this goes through to an external wall as opposed to upwards.
Go for power as opposed to balanced flue as the balanced is a glass enclosed unit and the power works from emiiting gasses from a electric source and the fire can be an open one.
The fires are sold as a complete unit fire flue and all, dont recall the exact site but got mine from "fires on line"

 

[JerryD]

DFE fires (as they are known) need a Class 1 flue just the same as a coal or log burning open fire.

Room ventilation is critical too, you'll need permanent air vents to comply with current regs.

We recently built such a chimney and flue for a customer, the regs required TWO 9"x9" air bricks through the cavity wall, the 'free' area being the equivalent to a 5" square hole in the wall PERMANENTLY!

By permanent they mean no shutters or means to close it off!

Look on the Red Bank website, lots of info there.

 

[Phill D]

Im hoping those regs only apply to houses of a certain age Jerry.
i dont fancy knocking holes in my walls for vents.

I seem to come up against new regulations every time I go to do something.
I think 'safety' is becoming a bit too safe.
I had a British Gas engineer round to fix my CHeating last month: "Ooh, thats not regulation" he said pointing at a thingymebob.
The council only put it in 18 months ago and already its technically 'not safe'!

I just want to put a ruddy fire in!
Stick a monoxide tester in the room, job done, get on with the bathroom plastering.

60,000,000 people live in this country. 50 died of monoxide poisoning last year. Thats 0.00008%
Why all the regulations!

 

[Tom.]

I have a flueless gas fire in my back room. ITs very good (about 100% efficient I'm told), but I had to install a large vent in the same room. Its open all the time, although you really don't feel any breeze coming through it, its some kind of specially designed tube that runs right through the wall to the outside - it isn't just a straight piece of tubing.

 

[JerryD]

Im hoping those regs only apply to houses of a certain age Jerry.
i dont fancy knocking holes in my walls for vents.

I seem to come up against new regulations every time I go to do something.

I think 'safety' is becoming a bit too safe.

Why all the regulations!

Well I do agree, we seem to be creating new regulations every day. I think the reason for the permanent air vents is to overcome the issue of houses becoming more airtight as we all fit upvc windows with weatherstripping and draught proof letterboxes etc. Good 'old' houses were draughty naturally so the fire could draw air in from lots of places!

But you have to consider the huge airflow going up the chimney when the fire is burning, that air has to be replaced from somewhere. If you have an 'airtight' house then the next available souce of air to feed the fireplace will be the gas boiler flue. Now you don't need me to tell you the potential danger from sucking gas flue gasses back into your house?

 

[Malc]

In case you do decide to look at electric flame effect here are some URLs:

http://www.gasflamedirect.com/
http://www.fireplace-warehouse.co.uk/
http://firesrus.co.uk/
http://www.flameritefires.com/products_euro.htm
http://www.crystalfires.co.uk/
http://www.dimplex.co.uk/

But you need to go and look at then and see what you think. I started off thinking modern but on looking at all these stainless steel pebble things I though - rubbish. The SS just does not look as good as a cast brass or black fire - the phrase bent tin springs to my mind.

Also, pebbles and real coal is another stoopid idea. Lite coals glow. Pebbles/coal don't so all these look like is dark lumps with a light underneath. The moulded glassfibre with black paint - like you find on electric fire going way back looks much more realistic. It glows like real coals glow (I current have a real fire so I know).

Flame effects vary depending on manufacturer. But it seems to me that if you have a iron stove type where you are looking through a glass door to the flames then the effect can pretty realistic. The narrow angle of vision and the fact you have the glass of the door in way help a lot. Imitation open fires have the problem that the flames are projected on to a flat or curved surface, which if other light reflects off it, then you notice there is this surface. Being a glass door of the stove you don't notice this since 1. light can't reach the projection surface and 2. the glass reflects anyway.

Having said that, we ended up choosing an open fire type (Dimplex Horton) to suit our room. We also considered the Flameright Berkeley. What decided the choice was in part the controls. On the Horton the hood comes down lower as so the grill is hidden. You have to lift the hood to work the controls so you need two hands. On the Berkeley you can reach under to the controls so it suits all the one handed people. However, you can now see the grill of the electric convertor TOTALLY ruining the open fire look IMO.

The flame effect on the Dimplex is better than Flameright IMO but the curve of the Flameright surface more forgiving for reflected light. However, if you look at these fires you have to imagine what the lighting is like in your house. In the showrooms the lighting tends to be harsh and we found we liked the effect on a fire where a bulb had gone in the overhead lighting. This lead to the conclusion that under subdued lighting the flame effect would not have the reflections so we have chosen the dimplex.

 

[masona]

Just bought a dimplex electric fire and all my friend swear it's gas fire! We just leave the light on and must admit it does feel like a real fire, tend to feel warm without the heater on

 

[legs-akimbo]

For the purposes of a decorative fuel effect fire (DFE) whereby the products of combustion pass unrestricted to the flue a ventillated opening of a minimum 10,000mm squared should be provided, theese usually being met by a combination of permanent wall/window vents.
However a balanced flue which is a room sealed unit or power flue as previously described do not rely on the room from which they are located as a source of air ie combustion air is provided directly from the outside.
Current Irish regs.
British may vary but if the above is sufficient then to my mind it is enough not to be killing anyone and adds weight to phil D's comments on building regs which for the most part I totally agree with!!
But this is another argument entirely.
In short phil look at power flues, you get what you are looking for without the need to knock out vents.

 

[stevedo]

Lots of class 2 real effect gas fires to be found here http://www.firesfiresfires.co.uk/firesfiresfires/products.asp?Prod=GF&ProdType=INS

 

[Noraslad]

You can get some great looking class2 fires and some for around the same price as a DFE. Not all dfe's require a vent, read the manufactures instructions carefully. Ireland is different to the UK in ventilation requirements. Take a look in your local fireplace showroom to get an idea.
Heres a few reasonably priced ones.
www.townandcountryfires.co.uk
www.crosslee.co.uk/royal.html
www.magiglo.co.uk

 

[cpd01]

Hi all our 1st post with years in the fireplace industry your gas fitter is wrong you can use 5" flexible pipe for decorative gas use you need a class 2 gas liner have a look on our website ****